I’ve taken a brief hiatus from a deep study of the Book of Mormon because I’ve been writing a lot and had a big stack of books I needed to get through. Over the past couple months, I’ve personally witnessed in myself what happens as a person neglects to study the Book of Mormon. I know that Book is true…but as time goes on…and that book sits unopened on my desk, the natural tendency is to forget how complex and deeply powerful that book really is.
People will undoubtedly make fun of me for saying this but I need that book in my life. I need it like I need the Bible. Both..in concert…help me in every aspect of my life.
A few months ago I wrote an article entitled “So…You Think The Book of Mormon is A Fraud?” In the article…I gave my personal experience with the Book of Mormon in my college years and also laid out some of the logical reasons why I believe the book to be true. Some people loved it…and some people hated it…but at the end of the day, the experiences I shared are so tangible to me that I’ll never be able to forget or deny their reality.
Sometimes I wonder how many people out there feel the same way that I do. Each of them in their own time, their own place, their own circumstance had a supernatural witness given to them that this book is true and it is impossible to deny.
When I first read that book…I didn’t care if it was true or not. In fact…if it wasn’t true, then I could’ve just kept playing baseball, surfing, and living the way I wanted to live. I wouldn’t have been inclined to spend two of my most prime years on a mission. I could’ve stayed right there on the beach in my comfort zone.
But if I found out that the Book of Mormon is true…then everything was going to change.
I can’t deny the spiritual and logical reasons that were presented to me as part of my testimony of that book’s truthfulness. But even today…the evidences keep piling up.
As a result of me publishing my testimony online regarding the Book of Mormon, I’ve had hundreds…maybe even thousands of people send me messages with their reasoning about why the Book of Mormon can’t be true. I’m not mad at those people. I’m grateful for them. I love them. Many of them truly believe that I have been deceived and that the book of Mormon is a fabricated fraud. I appreciate them taking the time to write their lengthy rebuttals and reasoning for their conclusions. It makes me think about things that I’ve never thought of.
But then I keep seeing things that refute those conclusions.
Take for instance this National Geographic article that was published last November. The title caught my attention. It read…“Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins.
To the many people that sent me info on how DNA has proven the Book of Mormon false…this would indeed be a “Great Surprise!” The subtitle to this article read, “Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.” Scroll down a little more and you see a picture of a Native American sitting on a horse. Under that picture is a caption…“Native Americans may have a more complicated heritage than previously believed.”
So what you’re telling me is that some of the Native Americans came from the Middle-East?
Go figure.
Now all of the sudden…people that denounced the Book of Mormon because “DNA and science had proven its downfall” are now asked to reconsider their position. The expert in charge of these findings is an ancient-DNA specialist by the name of Eske Willerslev. He said…”These results were a great surprise to us…I hadn’t expected anything like this. A genome related to present-day western Eurasian populations and modern Native Americans as well was really puzzling in the beginning. How could this happen?”
[adinserter block=1]How could this happen!
This book had to come from somewhere. Some people say Joseph Smith must have been a “child prodigy”. Others say he was was inspired by the devil, or possibly a lunatic. Still…others say that he was no different than a J. R. R. Tolkien, Steven Spielberg, or George Lucas. Just another creative mind with a fantastic imagination.
But every logical and spiritual bone in my body tells me that this book is not and could not be fictional.
There are millions of people that have read the book and felt that it is true. They have gained that assurance through the testimony of the Holy Ghost, which is a gift that is promised to us in the New Testament. Many of us seek evidences to help bolster that testimony. The pendulum swings back and forth as this or that evidence is proven or disproven by opponents on both sides of the argument.
But there is one thing that has occurred to me recently that has become the most solid logical evidence for the Book of Mormon. I’d like to take credit for discovering this groundbreaking evidence…but millions before me had already discovered it long before I did as they read the Book of Mormon.
My discovery happened as a result of taking a break from studying the Book of Mormon (which I don’t suggest). As a result of being asked to give the “5th Sunday Lesson” in 3rd hour, I was required to depart from my stack of books and jump back into the Book of Mormon.
When I cracked open the Book of Mormon, it was as if a physical peace came over me. I went straight to Alma 30 based on the topic I was speaking about…and as I started reading…all I could think about was this;
“If Joseph Smith somehow wrote this book…how could he have acquired this much wisdom?”
Yes, there are child prodigies. Yes, there are con-artists, frauds, and plagiarizers. But child prodigies, though they be smart…do not have wisdom. There is no immediate or intelligent substitute for experience and wisdom. You can fake a lot of things in life…but you can’t fake wisdom. You can’t dream it up on the spot or summon it without years, even decades of experience. As Richard G. Scott once said… “You cannot draw water from and empty well.” Having been a 20 year old once myself…20 years is not enough time to come up with a fraction of the wisdom that is found within the Book of Mormon.
Wisdom comes only in time…and Joseph Smith didn’t have the time, the resources, or the mentors to pull off a stunt like that without being found out by those that were closest to him. The timeless counsel and wholesome advice that is found in the Book of Mormon has never been displayed by any known prodigy that I know of to date.
[adinserter block=2]The Bible was written and compiled over thousands of years by hundreds of authors, contributors, and translators. The Book of Mormon is in my mind on par with the Bible in regards to it profundity. Are you telling me that one little young frontiersman could pull this off in broad daylight in front of so many strong minded and intelligent individuals? No con-artist or fraud has accomplished such a feat in our recorded history.
Even if a con or a fraud could write that book…why would they? If Joseph Smith was a fraud and the Book of Mormon was a hoax…then why would he turn himself around after he was already safely across the Mississippi river to surrender himself into what he knew was certain death in Carthage jail? If he was that evil and selfish…then surrendering himself would have been the last thing on his mind. Have you ever run into a con-man that would do such a thing?
Why would a con-man bear his testimony to the guards about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon in his final hours if it was indeed a fraud? You’d have to be deranged to do that. Maintaining the fraud would be the last thing on someone’s mind. Jeffrey Holland quoted his own great grandfather in saying that “No wicked man could write such a book as this; and no good man would write it, unless it were true and he were commanded of God to do so.” (Safety for The Soul)
Finding a National Geographic article once in a while that validates your beliefs is cool…but those things can always be debated. The wisdom found within the Book of Mormon however…is hard to dispute and even harder to ignore. No young man is capable of that kind of wisdom. Nothing against Joseph Smith…but he wasn’t capable of that book. I see no logical way that he could have written it. Throw in Oliver Cowdrey, Sidney Rigdon, Martin Harris, Socrates, Aristotle, Aquinas, Augustine, Locke and Plato combined and you’d still be hard pressed to match the wisdom and complexity found within the Book of Mormon.
That book is too awesome to sit on my shelf collecting dust…which is why that stack of books I needed to get through will just have to take a back seat from now on.
With all due respect, what a crock. After having living in Mesoamerica and seeing how antithetical the real history is to the Book of Mornon, the lack of anthropological, historical and theological support, I abandoned any belief in such an odd 19th century fairy tale. Theologically, the BoM is a disaster. It makes God a trickster, claiming that “Adam fell that men might have joy,” takes aim at paedobaptism (something intrinsic in the church, as part of the Abrahamic Covenant), Original Sin and tells men that grace is NOT free, contradicting the Bible (“after all you can do!). Let alone, let’s not forget the rant against Calvinism at the Rameumptum. Joe’s trite book takes hold of issues that were prevalent in the 2nd Great Awakening. It is recycled Finneyism more than Christianity. Oh, can we also forget the Modalism in the first edition?
If this book was truly written by “God,” that is NOT a God I want anything to do with. He is a duplicitous figure who deserves not my worship. As a side note, there is absolutely NO evidence of Monotheism among the natives in Mexico and Central America. They were pagan polytheists.
Let me leave you with Mark Twain’s sharp assessment of Joe Smith’s theological drivel:
“The book seems to be merely a prosy
detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model;
followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author
labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound
and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the
result is a mongrel — half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity
and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural,
but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too
modern — which was about every sentence or two — he ladled in a few
such Scriptural phrases as ‘exceeding sore,’ ‘and it came to pass,’
etc., and made things satisfactory again. ‘And it came to pass’ was his
pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a
pamphlet.”
Not sure if this is your real name Elchupacabras…but thanks for your comment. It’s ok to disagree and I appreciate you taking the time. I would obviously disagree with you and Mark Twain in this regard. What I get out of the book is the complete opposite. But seriously…thanks for taking the time.
My question is, why, why do all these fine educated folks care if Joseph was a fake or not? They have been doing this for more than one hundred years and the church keeps growing.
If church growth is your standard for being a prophet, then the Pope is the true christian leader as Catholicism has been growing for many hundreds of years longer than any branch of mormonism.
No, my question was and still is, why? Why do you care if Joseph Smith was a prophet? Will the knowledge of Joseph Smith make you happy, rich, good looking or will you still be an idiot?
Hey Junebug, no balls to show your real name? We see you throwing ad-hominem attacks all over the place! Be a man, try to question as an educated person. It looks you still believe in Santa! Use your knowledge, not your anger/hate/frustration… Do you have an attention-seeking-disorder?
As evidenced by my gravatar, believing in Joseph Smith has made me one macho man to optically behold. ;>)
Actually Hubie, the church is no longer growing, in fact if you look at actual numbers, not the over inflated numbers the church provides, the church is actually stagnant or even possibly shrinking. In 2013 the church boasted 334,000 converts. By the churches own admission only about 30% of those converts will be active after 1 year, which makes that number of actual attending members around 100,000. In 2013 the churches own historian estimated that in both 2012 and 2013 there were approximately 100,000 people per year who withdrew their names. Making the growth negative or at best, flat.
And people should care. The mormom church requires 100% devotion, in fact for many it is their identity. They are told to pay tithing before buying food, they are brainwashed into believing that if you don’t wear magic underwear you can’t go to mormon heaven with your family, etc. The doctrines of the church and the way it treats it’s members is very destructive and people need to be taught the truth.
So you want to save all the poor souls from the awful life of being a Mormon. Well thank you
for your work and for all the twisted information.
Now, what church would you suggest all that those poor misgided souls join?
Why the need to join any church, Junebug? I find it interesting that Mormons ask this question when they find out someone has left the church. My belief is that we have within us all that’s needed…we do not need a church to be good people. I think that Jesus guy even said as much.
Also, please reveal just which information Kevin posted above was “twisted”, and just how it was twisted. I found it to be factual. Another tidbit – did you know that the church counts inactive members whom they cannot locate as one of those (ahem) 15 million Mormons, until that person would have been 109 years old..? Seems pretty duplicitous to me, I’d imagine you’ll see this Exmo as the one twisting information, rather that the true information twister – the Mormon church.
Magic underware? Is that true? Must pay tithing before buying food? So what if I like the social relationship with the fine folks at a church, I enjoy the meetings and the Mr. Osteen makes me feel good. You say I can’t go? Come on guys, tell the truth, you hate yourself or God?
Osteen? Junebug’s a po
You don’t know who Joel is. He has been all over the network and he has one of the largest churches in the good old USA.
What are you talking about? Are you asking a question about the Mormon garment, or “magic underwear” that believing Mormons wear? Garments that they believe are sacred and are a protection against harm? The ones I wore as a Mormon? I’m not sure what you’re getting at. And why are you bringing up osteen?
I like to hear Joel Osteen preach and I know a Mormon that said his underware isn’t magic. It doesn’t protect him from anything, he said it just reminds him of a promise he made to his God.
This comment cracks me up, is if to imply ‘well guys, if the Mormons aren’t right, please tell me who is!?’ Sound familiar? Isn’t that what Joseph wanted to know? We’re unconsciously conditioned to ask the same questions.
But what if we’re asking the wrong question? What if Joseph asked the wrong question. Why do we assume that God created or even requires religion at all. Religion is man’s creation. Maybe God doesn’t give two shakes about religion but just wants us all to be civil to each other. Is that possible?
This may come as a shock to you but maybe you should think for yourself instead of just going around taking the words of guys screaming supernatural claims in the streets. Novel thought eh?
That Church has grown from 6 in the 1800’s to millions today. You can’t go anywhere without runing into a Mormon. There is even a play about their Book? So why are you so set on changing those poor people to think you way?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about .
You have no idea what you are talking about .
Kevin. I am a Mormon. I love my faith, and I have found so much joy in it and it has been my rock in the may trials and losses that have come to me and that naturally come to all men in this life. From your report of our beliefs, I believe someone has given you some misinformation. I invite you to find out what we really believe. You can find answers from LDS.ORG, by reading the Book of Mormon, or by asking our Missionaries any questions you have. Read the Book of Mormon, even if your purpose is too look for more ammunition for your case. Read it just see what is really in there, and then you will know and you can decide for yourself, and not from others, if we are still as you currently view us. To God, you are far greater in worth than any man made possession on earth. You and we, his children, are his greatest creations. God loves you and he knows you are searching for answers.
1: The church may technically be “growing” but the exponential growth the church saw in the past will never happen again. With the truth available to everyone with an internet connection the church’s sordid past and false teachings are easily recognized.
2: With all these “fine educated folks” continually pointing out the scientific and historic problems with the church long-time members like myself can and do finally realize the truth behind the mormon BS and leave for good. (I was born in the church, served a mission, served as EQ president and was married/sealed in the temple. You may want to hide your head in the sand and act as if nothing is happening but there is a reason the church authorities are calling this a time of great apostasy.
Did you find something better? Tell me about it. I am sure it is perfect and no one in your organization has ever done anything you disagree with. To bad the Mormons wouldn’t let you be the President, I am sure you could have things done right.
The rate of the church growing is just below the population growth of the whole human population. Meaning by the numbers alone- yes growing but in the larger picture shrinking.
You shouldn’t worry, there are still millions of them around if you want one to save.
Actually church membership is in decline in most of the world. The church counts everyone who has ever been baptized as a member, but if you look at the numbers of people who actually show up to church every Sunday, the numbers are a lot lower. While the church claims 15million members, only between three to four million regularly attend. Now true, some of the remaining 11 to 12 million may still be believers, but consider this. According to church records, the vast majority of people in both Utah and Idaho are members, but according to self reporting census numbers, it is less then half.
Because we don’t want any more people spreading lies and fairy tales and demanding ten percent of peoples money to get into heaven and religious zealotry in a world where there should be critical thinking and free thought and consideration.
Why would a self centered knot head like you care what dumb people do with their money and time. Don’t tell me you don’t lie and make up tales. If I could demand 10% of your income I would tell you stories all week.
There can be a disagreement over doctrine, story telling, having a spiritual understanding, etc.
There can’t be a disagreement on what we know. Not on an emotional level. On a level that requires no spiritual incline to any specific god.
You can disagree on the abstract but not the concrete things that we can test and account for without faith or a spiritual understanding.
Here are the problems i see-
Problems-
Horses, cattle, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheels, chariots,
wheat, silk, steel, and iron did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times. Why are these things mentioned in the Book of Mormon as being made available in the Americas between 2200 BC – 421 AD?
Native American DNA not being Hebrew (NATGEO evidence proves that there is some Eurasian descent 24,000 years ago). Cherry picking science to use as evidence which then is discarded when going against claims.
Very similar works to come out of that time frame (which didn’t require heavenly visitors) – The Late War, Book of the Hebrews, Solomon Spaulding, First Book of Napoleon
Joseph’s translation skills with the Book of Abraham from Egyptian (non reformed) into English proved to not be there as the translations were wrong, as said by the church today. If that’s the case, how can you trust him to translate “Reformed Egyptian”?
Reformed Egyptian has zero evidence of existing
The translation given to Martin Harris’ wife could not be duplicated because Joseph was making it up. That’s why Nephi had to repeat the same things.
Lehi’s dream is exactly like Joseph Smith Sr.’s dream of the Tree of Life
Captain Kidd folk stories talk about a place named “Moroni” on the island of “Comoro”. Crazy coincidence? No.
Most of the “fullness of the gospel” in the Book of Mormon is not to include temple ceremonies as in eternal sealings nor baptisms for the dead.
The teachings in the Book of Mormon have a trinitarian view of the godhead, condemn polygamy except under circumstances not met by Joseph, and speak of secret groups and handshakes as being evil (temple ceremonies).
The Jaredites supposedly escaped from the destruction of the Tower of Babel, due to the righteousness of one of their leaders. No modern linguist or historian views the biblical story of the Tower as historical.
The BoM explains that the dark skin of the American Indians is due to the unrighteousness of their ancestors (the Lamanites), and that righteousness will turn dark-skinned people white. No scientist accepts that as the cause of darker skin or a way to lighten skin color. The Lord did so that the Nephites would not be attracted to them. The book is RACIST.
The BoM claims that Jews of the 6th century BCE kept their sacred records in Egyptian, not Hebrew (Mosiah 1:4). Any scholar of Jewish history would find that to be absurd.
The plates from which the BoM were allegedly translated contained many passages from Hebrew scriptures, mostly Isaiah. They appear in the BoM in almost identical wording to the King James Translation (KJV) of 1611. And they include many of the same errors as were made by the KJV.
Large portions of the so-called Deutero-Isaiah are included, which Isaiah scholars date as having been written only after the Babylonian Captivity, that is, AFTER Lehi had left Jerusalem.
No non-Mormon historian, archaeologist, anthropologist, biologist, linguist or other expert in ancient American matters considers the BoM to be at all an accurate account of ancient American events or cultures. Not one.
The Nephite-Lehite growth rate is thirty times the rate that existed in the world as a whole during the same era. Moreover if, as is far more likely, the total population in 187 B.C.E. was in excess of 35,000, it would have taken an average annual growth rate of 1.8 percent to multiply the original thirty pioneers to that level at that time. This is a rate that has never been reached in the industrialized world and has only been achieved in the world overall since 1950.
The prophecies that are so specific, right up to the 1800’s.
The witnesses, by their own admission, seemed to have only seen the angel and plates in a ‘visionary state’ in their minds as Joseph suggested to them and not really with their natural eyes as members are taught. Why would real, metal plates need to be seen in a vision or with ‘spiritual eyes’ as many of the witnesses later testified?
Joseph translated using a rock in a hat. Why were the plates even preserved?
Why did Joseph try to sell the copyright of the book? Didn’t Moroni chastise him about it being gold that’s not for sale?
Why has the book had thousands of corrections since being produced?
The names of the cities are extremely similar to nearby names of places in Joseph’s time- Teancum Tecumseh Ramah Rama
Moron Morin Ogath Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts, Quebec
Morianton Moraviantown Angola Angola
Onidah Oneida Kishkumen Kiskiminetas
Jacobugath Jacobsburg
Alma Alma Land of Lehi-Nephi Lehigh
Shilom Shiloh Ripliancum Ripple Lake, Ontario
The characters are 2 dimensional and sound a lot like a self-righteous kid writing a fantasy about telling off pastors. Joseph?
O. K., so now you have proven the Mormon church to be wrong, no one should ever go to it again and they should close the doors and throw away the keys. Now what are you going to do for fun? Me I will just play golf as usual. Have a great day Guys.
“Reformed Egyptian has zero evidence of existing”
What’s your knowledge regarding Hebrew and Egyptian language patterns found within the Uto-Aztecan language family?
“Horses, cattle, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheels, chariots,
wheat, silk, steel, and iron did not exist in pre-Columbian America during Book of Mormon times. Why are these things mentioned in the Book of Mormon as being made available in the Americas between 2200 BC – 421 AD?”
Wheat did and horses is highly probable. Considering that once upon a time smart people with pieces of paper that say they are smart said exactly as you do. Also, metal absolutely existed in Book of Mormon times. That’s not even in dispute. And their “steel” and “iron” does not necessarily have to be the same metallic compounds we define them today. Even biblical steel is not the same as steel we have today.
“Native American DNA not being Hebrew (NATGEO evidence proves that there is some Eurasian descent 24,000 years ago). Cherry picking science to use as evidence which then is discarded when going against claims.
Very similar works to come out of that time frame (which didn’t require heavenly visitors) – The Late War, Book of the Hebrews, Solomon Spaulding, First Book of Napoleon”
Granted, the timing is off but not too long ago many people, including the very ones with smart papers verifying their high level of intellect, said no people came from the middle East. Now we have the National Geographic saying they do. That, I think, is Trimble’s point.
“Joseph’s translation skills with the Book of Abraham from Egyptian (non reformed) into English proved to not be there as the translations were wrong, as said by the church today. If that’s the case, how can you trust him to translate “Reformed Egyptian”?”
It’s actually a lot better than you think .
“The translation given to Martin Harris’ wife could not be duplicated because Joseph was making it up. That’s why Nephi had to repeat the same things.”
If he made up a 600 plus paged book in less than two months with no known notes in front of him which contains to major trans oceanic voyages creating three major nations, sub nations later incorporated into he larger ones, each having its own distinct language, culture, philosophies, several books with its own unique language style (ergo, different authors), and be remarkably consistent from page one to the end of the book, then could you cite a mart person with a paper saying he or she is smart explain how he did it? Or, you can explain it yourself since you seem to be well studied.
“The BoM claims that Jews of the 6th century BCE kept their sacred records in Egyptian, not Hebrew (Mosiah 1:4). Any scholar of Jewish history would find that to be absurd.”
” 4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.”
All the text says is that Lehi could not know ‘all these things’ on the plates which Nephi retained from Laban in Jerusalem. This leaves the interretation wide open to there being merely *some* parts in Egyptian, not necessarily all of it. With that in mind, here’s a great link with information to consider:
“The claim that Israelites would not use Egyptian is clearly false. By the ninth to sixth centuries before Christ, Israelites used Egyptian numerals mingled with Hebrew text. The Papyrus Amherst 63 contains a text of Psalms 20:2-6 written in Aramaic (the language of Jesus) using Egyptian characters. This text was originally dated to the second century B.C., but this has since been extended to the 4th century B.C.[1]”
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Language/Reformed_Egyptian
“Captain Kidd folk stories talk about a place named “Moroni” on the island of “Comoro”. Crazy coincidence? No.
Most of the “fullness of the gospel” in the Book of Mormon is not to include temple ceremonies as in eternal sealings nor baptisms for the dead.”
What did Captain Kidd write and when and how did that information fall into Joseph Smith’s knowledge?
The Book of Mormon has the fullness of the gospel since it avidly testifies of Jesus Christ. That’s the fullness right there. The Book of Mormon is also full of temple language including God, angels, and mortals coming together at the temple to enlighten the mortal participants.
(3 Nephi 11-16)
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne?lang=eng
Those teachings would be God imparting His secrets to mortals. Biblical Hebrew write these secrets as God’s “sôd”.
“The teachings in the Book of Mormon have a trinitarian view of the godhead, condemn polygamy except under circumstances not met by Joseph, and speak of secret groups and handshakes as being evil (temple ceremonies).”
The book of Mormon clearly distinguishes the father and the son as separate beings:
” 8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.
9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.
10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.”
(1 Nephi 1:8-10)
Also:
”
Anti-Mormon writers in 1831 noted that Joseph claimed to have received “a commission from God”; and the Mormons claimed that Joseph “had seen God frequently and personally.” That Joseph’s enemies knew he claimed to have “seen God,” indicates that the doctrine of an embodied God that could be seen was well-known early on.
John Whitmer would also write in 1831 of a vision enjoyed by Joseph in which Joseph saw Christ as separate from the Father, for he “saw the heavens opened, and the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the Father making intercession for his brethren, the Saints.” (emphasis added) Of this same experience, Levi Hancock wrote:
Joseph Smith then stepped out onto the floor and said, ‘I now see God, and Jesus Christ at his right hand, let them kill me, I should not feel death as I am now.’ (emphasis added)”
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision/Joseph_Smith%27s_early_conception_of_God
Sacred handclasps are quite biblical and part of ancient Judaic worship. There are also many paintings depicting God or angels clasping the hands of the faithful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rF9iTYmBNc
http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/david-calabro-on-the-divine-handclasp-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-in-ancient-near-eastern-iconography/
“The BoM explains that the dark skin of the American Indians is due to the unrighteousness of their ancestors (the Lamanites), and that righteousness will turn dark-skinned people white. No scientist accepts that as the cause of darker skin or a way to lighten skin color. The Lord did so that the Nephites would not be attracted to them. The book is RACIST.”
Viewing people anciently in terms of skin color is not unique to the Book of Mormon. And while the dark skin was a result of sin it was a “mark”, not a “curse”. There were times when the dark skinned Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites. It is said that their dark skin was made light later on but not during much of their righteous endeavors in serving Jesus Christ. In order to qualify this as “racism”, you must include racial superiority which the Book of Mormon does not do. There’s even evidence that dark and white skinned Nephites dwelt harmoniously together. Also, what you referenced is that the Nephites would not be “enticed” by the Lamanites, not “unattracted”.
“No non-Mormon historian, archaeologist, anthropologist, biologist, linguist or other expert in ancient American matters considers the BoM to be at all an accurate account of ancient American events or cultures. Not one.”
Except the parts of buildings of cement, large populations, roads, large armies with commanders, calendar and advanced reading and writing systems, and transoceanic voyages.
“The names of the cities are extremely similar to nearby names of places in Joseph’s time- Teancum Tecumseh Ramah Rama
Moron Morin Ogath Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts, Quebec
Morianton Moraviantown Angola Angola
Onidah Oneida Kishkumen Kiskiminetas
Jacobugath Jacobsburg
Alma Alma Land of Lehi-Nephi Lehigh
Shilom Shiloh Ripliancum Ripple Lake, Ontario”
This has been thoroughly debunked. Many of those names came after the Book of Mormon was published.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Place_names_from_North_America
Wow, talk about blind faith. How many “intellectuals” will read Nick’s list of supposed local plagiarisms of Joseph Smith, without doing the research to double check?!
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Place_names_from_North_America
nearly all of these claims of cities cited were founded WELL AFTER THE BOOK OF MORMON WAS WRITTEN.
if you find that significant, well, i can’t help you.
here’s a cool find. if i had time i’d post more.
order the book “exploring the lands of the book of mormon” and you’re jaw will be dropped and all your intellectual thirst will be quenched
http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/a-nickname-and-a-slam-dunk-notes-on-the-book-of-mormon-names-zeezrom-and-jershon/
Mayan, “It came to pass”.
The phrase “it came to pass” was a common Hebrew idiom. The King James translation only translated about half of the times it was used in the original Hebrew. If Mark Twain didn’t know that, how would Joseph Smith have known it? There are also some beautiful examples of a Hebrew style called chiasmus that survived translation and were not discovered in the Book of Mormon for over a hundred years. Chiasmus in the Bible sometimes survived translation and sometimes didn’t depending on how closely the translators followed the original text. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon into words similar to the King James translation of the Bible because that was what he was familiar with. But he must have followed the original text fairly closely, or the chiasmus would have been lost in translation.
Why would Joseph Smith take the time and effort to compose Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon and then never mention it? It only makes sense that he was not the original author and therefore didn’t know about it. So did he translate the book from ancient records, as he claimed? Or did he plagiarize from someone else? If the latter, who could it have been? Who knew enough about Chiasmus (before anyone else did) and also other ancient Hebrew writing styles that they could have composed the Book of Mormon and not told anyone about it? Someone that skilled would have to have been highly educated and well known. And how did Joseph Smith get his hands on the only existing manuscript? People are free to believe anything they want, but to make a credible claim of fraud, there has to be strong evidence that explains where the Book of Mormon came from and how Chiasmus and other Hebrew idioms that provide evidence for the ancient origins of the Book of Mormon could have found their way into that book. If there is such evidence, I have yet to see any of it.
And how does the presence of Chiasmus and “it came to pass”es validate the writings of the Book of Mormon? You said yourself that it already existed in the King James scripture, even if only half of it was lost in translation. People didn’t have to know what it’s called to recognize, imitate and replicate it. And Joseph Smith was no mere idiot. He had been a student of religion long before he made himself a “prophet”. Obviously he wouldn’t announce his use of Chiasmus if it proved that he was fabricating everything. He certainly tried to keep his polygamy/polyandry/hebephilism secret.
chupa;
What modalism was evident in the Book of Mormon’s first edition? I’ve consistently heard that the Book of Mormon is Trinitarian before Joseph Smith changed his mind on that type of divine unity. I’m not familiar with Modalism being presented in the first edition of the Book of Mormon.
Furthermore, your theological arguments only show that the Book of Mormon is not Protestant. no big secret there though Lynn Ridenhour would take issue with that.
http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm
“I’m a licensed Southern Baptist minister and I embrace the Book of Mormon.
That is, I believe the truths recorded in it. No, I’m not a convert to the Mormon faith, nor am I a member of any particular “spin-off” restoration group such as the RLDS (Reorganized Latter-day Saints), Hedrikites, or Strangites. I’m still a Baptist minister. To be exact, I’m “charismatic Baptist.” That is, I still embrace the “born again” experience. I still believe you’re saved by grace. By the shed blood of Christ. Salvation is by faith alone in His finished work on Calvary. I still believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit. I believe and embrace those cardinal doctrines of Protestantism.”
As for Mark Twain, careful who you choose to cite when scripting against the Book of Mormon especially if one is a Bible believer.
http://www.twainquotes.com/Bible.html
Your conclusion isn’t new. But it is easily refuted. All the reasons you stated could be where the wisdom came from, the devil will tell 1000 truths to get you to believe on lie. The other problem is that wisdom doesn’t make something true. All holy books have truth an wisdom in them. Yet, we do not accept all holy books the same way we do the Bible and Book of Mormon.
To understand why the Book of Mormon is “true” we have to say WHY it is true, what MAKES it true. When we say it has wisdom we have to explain what that wisdom is. Atheists have wisdom, They know murdering and stealing is wrong. They understand it is better to be a good person than a bad one. That doesn’t mean anything in the context of the Mormon idea of “truth.”
The Book of Mormon is true because it testifies of Jesus Christ. All things that testify of Christ are true. Other things may be correct, but not “true.” That is what is meant when Mormons say “true.” The Church isn’t “true” when it stops blacks from having the priesthood. It isn’t “true” when it petitions the government to tell other churches how to define marriage (insisting they worship as we do). But it IS true when it testifies of Christ.
This is what makes it true. This is what can make other churches true in their own way. But when they deny things like the physical Resurrection, they deny truth and are not “true” like our church is. When they claim that Jesus and Elohim are the same person they are not “true” like ours is. Etc…
People read the Book of Mormon and know it is true the same way Stephen could not be rebuked (Acts 6: 9-10). And when they cannot refute it, the do the same to it as they did with Stephen (Acts 6: 11-13). Why? Because they both preached the same truth: that Jesus IS the Christ. (Book of Mormon Title Page). All other reasons for the Book of Mormon being true are rationalizes.
I believed in LDS for 60 years. When I left I found out that the passages in the Book of Mormon that really made it feel right were all out of the Bible. So many passages in the Book of Mormon give no indication they are from the Bible. The footnotes do not even go to the Bible verse they were taken from. I suppose this is to hide the fact most are from the bible.
I left when they said being Gay was not a sin. Boy Scouts could not be abused in tents with Gays. The Church left me. They had taught it a sin for my entire 60 years of life now it is not a sin? I simply could not believe they now taught that. When I confirmed they did I left.
I then found out that it was simply a lie the Church was restored from the Church at the time of Jesus. Jesus kept the Seventh Day Sabbath as did all of His Apostles for their entire lives. On Sunday they held going away parties. The Apostles met like LDS Apostles meet on Thursday. They gathered mail on Sunday so as to not work gathering it on the Sabbath. They kept the Feast days throughout the New Testament all the way through Acts. They also ate only Clean Foods though in all things they did not expect converts to change immediately. Thus they did not judge them in these things depending on Sabbath Day (Seventh Day) teachings to guide them eventually to correct principals.
I am now glad the Church said Gay is no sin. It led me to real truth.
Except it is considered sinful to act on those desires. And being gay is considered a “temporary state.” How lovely. *sarcasm*
The concept of “weeks” and that they need to be 7 days long, and that God cares about 7 day weeks is silly.
Yes those ten commandments. Just silly. God did not really mean us to live them.
The fourth says Sabbath is on the seventh day. Although LDS does not print that part when it list the commandments because it teaches its members to break the Sabbath and worship on the Venerable Day of the Sun God. Idolatry.
Steve, from our private discussion, I get your viewpoint. For me, a god that cares about 7 day weeks seems like a god who’s into arbitrary assignments and numerology. Magic numbers.
The first 4 of the 10 commandments are pretty silly and demonstrate more of a desire by the religious leaders to maintain their own power and control.
When you find out that Jesus said, “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you…” are you going to leave all of Christianity behind, too? If you have a tough time showing love to sinners, or seeking out lost sheep, or accepting that Jesus is Lord over the Sabbath, as he said he was, what makes you even want to be Christian?
I find I need a book in my life, too. Isn’t it about time … For Dianetics?
haha Dave. I had to look that one up 🙂
I’m not sure who first said it, but I love the quote that says,
“If given an infinite amount of time, science would eventually prove everything revelation has been saying all along.”
“Science” used to say that there were no oceanic crossings before the time of Columbus…we know now that isn’t true. “Science” used to say that the ancient Native Americans during the Book of Mormon time-frame were peaceful, and that war was almost unheard-of among them…we know now that isn’t true. “Science” used to say that there’s no evidence of Hebraic or Egyptian writing among the ancient Native Americans…we know now that isn’t true. And “science” used to say that Native American DNA was linked to eastern Asian ancestors, and not western Eurasians…but we know now that isn’t true. Bit by bit, science keeps discovering more and more of what the Book of Mormon and Latter-day Prophets have been saying all along. When will people begin to see the superiority of faith and revelation over so-called “science”? (I say “so-called” because real science never tries to silence inquiry, which is exactly what those who attempt to discredit the Book of Mormon with “science” are trying to do. Real scientists know that science is very fluid, and so they never stop searching, digging, asking, and seeking for greater and greater understanding…much like what the Book of Mormon and Church leaders have always told us to do!) I guess it’ll be when they decide to test-out the wisdom in that Book for themselves, and learn for themselves that their previous conceptions of the Book were simply not true.
In the words of K from the film “Men in Black”,
“1500 years ago, EVERYBODY KNEW the Earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, EVERYBODY KNEW the Earth was flat. … Imagine what you’ll KNOW tomorrow.”
Appeal to ignorance fallacy. This rests entirely on the fact that scientists don’t know everything, combined with your confirmation bias to make things okay in retrospect.
It’s fascinating that these people follow you, Greg. That seems like a weird path to choose, to spend your time responding in depth to someone you obviously oppose. I wonder what the driving force behind this behavior is. I can’t wrap my head around it. Do they also watch news channels they disagree with, go to concerts they don’t like, eat food they hate? Weird.
Very!
Yes because how dare someone disagree with a religion making supernatural claims and going around the world trying to convince everyone your religion is true and that their way of life is wrong. How petty of everyone else but you.
You must get a ton of crap Greg for writing your opinions and beliefs. I respect you for not reciprocating in kind but continually give a soft answer. You let people believe and say what they want and yet genuinely love them, just as you would like to be treated. You practice what you preach. The testimony of love speaks louder than the words you wrote.
Thank a lot Nate! Just hoping everyone can love each other and respect each others beliefs!
Differing viewpoints are colorful and healthy. Derogation is not.
Did you say that derisively? I can’t tell – written format and all does not transmit tone.
I enjoyed the article and thought out points Greg. Truth is truth regardless of proof and regardless of what others think or believe about it. One day it will all be completely clear one way or another. I believe, like you do, in the truthfulness and amazing wisdom of the Book of Mormon. I’ve never been offended that others don’t feel the same way. I appreciated your thoughts on it, and will be sharing this with others.
Thanks!
You are very welcome. And BTW.. I had about three people comment on my facebook post sharing the article and they also enjoyed it.
🙂
LH Smith, You said “One day it will all be completely clear one way or another.”
There is no reason at all to think this is true. It’s a completely unfounded assertion based entirely on the hope that there is some sort of “Post-Corporeal” awareness or self.
It is really a good thing that you aren’t offended by others not feeling the same way as you about the unfounded assertions of the LDS faith. Those people are only behaving rationally. You shouldn’t be offended by the rational behavior of others.
Wow!! An ad-hominem attack! Is that all you have? It seems you´re not familiar with the Westminster Confession of Faith! The “evangelical” conversions of Alma the Son and Lamoni don´t sound familiar to you either? It´s so easy to demonstrate that J.S. plagiarized Christian doctrine in New England! “AntiChrists” Corihor and Sherem tought Universalism. Besides the plagiarism of the KJV of the Bible. Not to mention the lack of horses, sheep, barley, steel, 12-month calendars, 7-day weeks! The Mayans are part of the history of my country. Are you willing to discuss any evidence found to support your work of fiction?
With all due respect you’re comparing principles from the Book of Mormon (which you discard) with teachings that don’t originate in the Bible but rather the precepts of men, and you use Mark Twain as a reference? That’s funny if a bit sad. What do the Mayans have to do with anything?!
Ranager – I really appreciate you noticing that. I know everyone doesn’t agree but I do try very hard to love everyone and respect their opinions even if I disagree with them. I hope all the best for you!
Thank you kindly..
Read the book. The book is its own defender. Like the Bible, is consistent at what other books fail to do over time, change lives. When I read it I am a little kinder, I am more patient with others who tend to irritate me, and I stop worrying about what I am getting for Christmas and try to think of ways to help others. If my response of reading the book are so misguided then may every man be as blinded by the book as I.
By your measure the L. Ron Hubbard book for Scientology – and by that I mean the book Dianetics – is true. Weak sauce?
I encourage anyone to get and early copy of the BOM and study it side by side with the most recent edition. How can such an inspired book need thousands of revisions? I remember a scripture in the D and C. “You shall know in your mind and in your heart.” We have all been given a mind and a heart. Please use both to discern the truth.
Yessir!
Interesting conversation here. I find myself feeling kind of bad for all of the people spending so much time trying to discredit what Greg or his church shares but I guess we all need hobbies in life. They clearly find happiness in it lol.
That’s funny Gene, the LdS Church has *literally* an army of Missionaries that goes out and challenges the beliefs of others and their churches – and that’s OK right?
Yet when others do the same with Mormons it makes you feel bad?
I believe this is what’s known as al double standard isn’t it?
I spent two years (and most of my lifetime) ‘sharing’ the gospel with friends and strangers. I have NEVER challenged, demeaned, or criticized anyone’s beliefs. I HAVE offered to share what I believe with them and promised to help them whether they accepted or not. There is no compulsion or force in anything we do as members. Latter-day Saints believe they have something wonderful to share and we are ready at all times to do so. But if a person doesn’t want to become part, we are fine with that. And we are not vindictive when the offer is refused.
But thanks for sharing anyway.
If this work is not of God it will come to naught.
If it be of God there is nothing that can be done to oppose it and stop it.
I always believed that… until the town of Harrison, New York, stopped the proposed temple there DEAD in its tracks — for which the Church already had bought the land.
After seven years of NON-STOP harassment (1995-2002) and repeated artificial hurdles set in place by the town and the evildoers behind the scenes who pull the strings, the Church sued the town, demanding a jury
trial. The federal judge told both sides in a daylong session in chambers that the town WOULD LOSE BIG if the case went to trial.
At the end of the daylong session, there was even more capitulation on top of years of previous capitulation by the Church with the YET ADDITIONAL CONCESSIONS the Church was putting in. I can understand being a good neighbor, but this was negotiating with suburban terrorists such as the Town of Harrison; in every case where you negotiate with terrorists, you NEVER win!
Gordon B. Hinckley should’ve sent in his chief leg-breaker Boyd K. Packer and one other apostle, and under cover of night, dusted off their feet on the site (D&C 75:20), and called upon the Lord to place His wrath upon that community and call them unto repentance His way, as God’s payback is an Eternal headache (D&C 19:11-12).
The ‘spirit of cooperation’ reportedly filled the room. If anyone with an IQ over 70 believes that tripe, I have some swampland in Brazil for sale; either that, or the Brooklyn Bridge…
The Harrison New York Temple — which HAD been on the list of temples on the Church’s website — was TAKEN DOWN from the Church website, especially as the Church announced plans for the Manhattan New York
Temple.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/harrison/
They say the Harrison Temple WILL be built. I DO NOT BELIEVE IT FOR A MINUTE!!! They are keeping the land, yes, if for no other reason, but to SPITE the Town and shove it in their faces..
BOTTOM LINE: UNHALLOWED HANDS STOPPED THE WORK COLD IN THIS INSTANCE!!
NO APOLOGIES, in keeping with Rollins’ Rule #1, that being: Never apologize for the truth. for it will ALWAYS stand on its own. ***
Greg, thank you – I appreciate your efforts on this one, it mirrors my sentiments almost exactly.
Kristin
There is so much evidence about the truth that the Book of Mormon is true that is sometimes sadly covered up. Hebrew has been found in Ohio many other things! I could go on and on there’s so much. If you do some research on you tube or the Web and Google things like Hebrew in America. You’ll find it if you really try. There is a you tube video that shows so many tablets found in America and artifacts that can prove it. But searching with your heart with pure intent is the real way to find out bc evidences people can easily dismiss but the pure love of Christ in your heart is the right way. Thanks for your testimony Greg!
Thanks a lot!
I’m not sure if any of you nay sayers have taken the time to read the Book of Mormon in its entirety. In my humble opinion there is no way that a young man could have fabricated such a wonderful story. And were you there when he made the decision to go to Carthage? He knew the mob would surely seek to take his life and if they had the Prophet, perhaps the rest of the congregation would be freed from persecution. Why would he continue to go forth in defense of the book after he had been tarred and feathered?? Everyone has a right to there own opinion, even the Great Mark Twain. I for one believed in all of the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but as you I struggled with Joseph Smith. I’m a history buff (that’s my major) and after fervently studying the life of Joseph Smith there’s no doubt these teachings are true. There is good in most religions, however this is the one that the Lord is most well pleased.
Thank you for your great post. I worry a little for you
because you have so many people that troll your blog. It’s got to be tough to
read such negativity all the time. Today, I scrolled down, didn’t even read the
comments (who has time?), but just skimmed. As I started seeing the same people
over and over again, I actually chuckled out loud. The habits of these people
who tear down you and your beliefs should tell you about their characters and
lifestyles. Not only do they try to tear down Christ’s church – and you – but they
probably don’t have much of a life. They either don’t have jobs and waste a lot
of time or they are wasting valuable time at work. That alone should tell you what
kind of people you are dealing with. So take heart as you get slammed.
I think of my own husband, who is a stalwart member of the
church. He gets up early in the morning to have personal study time, he helps
get the kids up and ready for the day (he even makes the lunches!), he works
hard at his job all day, comes home, plays with his children, spends time with
me, helps around the house, divides and conquers the to-do’s with me and of
course, spends plenty of time serving others, not just in church, but in the
community. He doesn’t have time to troll blogs and tear down other people. So just
know the type of people you’re dealing with. They are not people like my
husband who will probably never read your blog but would agree completely with
you. The fact that these folks have all this time and energy to destroy, not
build, should tell you something about them and what their lives are like.
Also, I have three brothers in three different states who
were bishops at the same time. When we’d get together, sometimes, they’d
compare notes. One thing they found is almost 99% of the people they knew who
tore down the doctrine were people who had sins they hadn’t repented of. The
number one sin was porn, but that was not always the case, just mostly the
case. It doesn’t mean everyone who tears down the doctrine has sins they haven’t
repented of. It was just something interesting that my three bishop brothers
observed. We know from countless scriptures that once the light goes, so does the knowledge and the mysteries of God. Even though they cannot understand things of the spirit, we just keep loving them because they’re still children of God, whether they like it or not!
In other words, keep in mind all this and don’t ever let
them shake you! Know who you’re dealing with and take it all in stride.
That said, I’ve been in a very unique place this past year
with the scriptures. I teach Gospel Doctrine so I’ve been studying intensely
the Old Testament. As a family, we’re reading The Doctrine and Covenants. For
my personal daily scripture study I read The Book of Mormon. Like you, I find
power in that book. It’s been so interesting intellectually to see how those
three books of scripture intertwine. I love the logic and the intellectual
stimulation of seeing how all three connect. I’m not sure even a genius or
prodigy could have done that, especially in the time frame of The Book of
Mormon being written or even the revelations in the D&C. Intellectually, it’s
been quite a trip. Spiritually, the experience has been nothing short of
powerful. The symbolism in the Bible, the multiple – and I mean multiple –
references to temples, combined with the D&C and The Book of Mormon alone
are beautiful. All this has done is further cement my testimony of the temple,
of the Prophet Joseph Smith and of the fact that the true gospel of Jesus
Christ is in this, the restored church of Jesus Christ!
Do you realize that your post comes across as quite judgy?
“He doesn’t have time to troll blogs and tear down other people. So just
know the type of people you’re dealing with. They are not people like my
husband who will probably never read your blog but would agree completely with
you. The fact that these folks have all this time and energy to destroy, not
build, should tell you something about them and what their lives are like.”
Apparently your husband’s hard work and sacrifice allow YOU the time to read blogs and tear people down.
I was a Mormon, I have read the book twice. I am a Mormon no more. There are so many reasons why. But, my favorite, I go out in the woods. I have a nice little chat with Jesus Christ and his father. I am told to start a new religion, can you imagine the reaction from all of you believers? And yet for some odd reason, 185 years ago, “Brother Smith” did the same thing. But, since it was 185 years ago, you believe today?? I live in Salt Lake City, Utah. The amount of money that religion has is ridiculous. They own most of downtown, and a mall?? Come on! That religion is a business. Nothing more, nothing less. Most religions are, think of all the religions. How many of them are broke?
But how can you put all of your trust in science? Or history for that matter?! We can’t even translate every written language that we have found and upon new discoveries the story continues to change! They have re-written itself thousand of times over! I don’t know why we all feel the need to argue and convince each other of the “right” way, why cannot we all share what we feel and believe without stabbing at other’s beliefs?
Merry Christmas to you as well!
I see many people just talking about things that don’t matter. What matters is this. More people is happy living the teachings of the scriptures. Family and marriages are stronger when they apply the gospel to their lives. Less divorces, Less separated families, less crimes among people who follow the scriptures. People may chose to believe or not. They may find many reasons why not to believe. But you cannot deny the fruits of this work. No one unless they experience it themselves can understand how this gospel changes lives. The Book of Mormon is true and it supports everything the Bible says and makes it even more clear. Science cannot prove spiritual truths. Because science can only prove by physical means. Spiritual truths can only be known by spiritual means. I know the Book of Mormon is true I have prayed and asked about it and received an answer. I invite you to do the same.
Thanks for the article. I think we are all inclined to feel and preach passionately at what we believe in. Raise each other up and stop tearing each other down. Whether you believe in a Deity or not, preach what you are genuinely passionate about and respect other’s for their views. I am LDS, and proud of it. However, I respect every Atheist, Muslim, Christian, etc. for what they believe in. Live you life and be happy.
Thanks for the article, Greg.
Thanks Chris!
There is a reason religion is based on faith…faith means believing in things we can’t see touch or feel….people all over the world have faith in the bible and dont recieve near as much ridicule as someone who has faith in another book such as the book of mormon…can’t we all just let each other believe what we want to believe and be kind….the whole point in faith is to trust what you know in your heart to be true no matter what others feel or think
Thanks Greg! I stand with you in finding out for myself that the Book of Mormon is true. I hope others reading this will do the same.
Thanks Jared!
Go to http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org Fascinating evidence!
Yes it is! I just got done watching a video on YouTube from them about DNA being found in an Indian tribe from the Great Lakes area. It was almost 4 hours, but full of astonishing findings! As the guy who did the lecture said, often if the data doesn’t match up with the theory, the data is thrown out. There’s so much stuff that just makes complete sense. The Book of Mormon is TRUE!!
As with most things, the explanation is simple.
The complexity of the Book of Mormon is directly attributable to the various sources it plagiarizes.
Here’s a list of the top plagiarisms of that book:
–The Late War
–The First Book of Napoleon
–View of the Hebrews
–1822 version of the Koran
–The Bible
–The Apocrypha
When you look at other teachings of Joseph Smith (D&C, Pearl of Great Price, Sermons, Temple Ceremony) you see the trend continue. Here are some sources he plagiarized there:
–John Milton (especially Paradise Lost)
–Swedenborg
–more Ethan Smith (he wrote View of the Hebrews)
–Smith Sr’s dream
–Masonic rituals
–Jewish Oral tradition, and other histories taught to him by his tutors
Read those books. It’s obvious.
Smith didn’t need to be a prodigy or genius. He borrowed and blended, requiring far less skill.
The skill comes after the fact when apologists go to great lengths to rationalize the various discrepancies and self-contradictions of the scriptures. They are skilled at the art of sophistry.
Occam’s razor is often discarded by mormons, so let me phrase it this way:
Are the apologetics to rationalize apparent discrepancies & plagiarism plain & precious?
Great post Greg, these are all good points. I love the Gospel of Jesus Christ I have found in the Book of Mormon, as well as other scriptures. There are living prophets today, and I am so happy that God wants his Church to be on the Earth in our day too. I feel the more I study it in a spirit of love the truer it becomes.
Dear Greg,
Please follow Jesus who is god in the flesh and without sin. As a Christen I have issues with Joseph Smith and Mormonism. Issue 1 Brigham Young believed in blood atonement Jesus died on the cross so we are forgiven. Issue 2 you’ll be sealed to you wife in heaven. In Mathew 22:30 Jesus says you will not be married in the resurrection . Mormons believe in doing genealogies in Timothy 1:4 I’m paraphrasing but basically says don’t waste your time with it. In Galatians 1:8 It says Even if we,or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Joseph Smith said that he translated the BoM, BoA, and Kinderhook Plates.
1. Kinderhook – confirmed fraud (STRIKE #1)
2. BoA – confirmed 100% incorrect translation – the church admits now (STRIKE #2)
3. BoM – DNA from 24k years ago (older than the earth as per D&C 77) = HOME RUN??
The problem with the BoM is the majority of us Mormons really don’t live by it’s teachings. Namely, that Jesus is the Eternal Father (title page) making himself manifest to all nations of the Earth. That God (Jesus) himself would come down and make himself a sacrifice for mankind (Mosiah 15) IE the God to whom Abinadi was praying to. We don’t cease praying to the Father in our sacrament meetings and pray to Jesus calling him our Lord and our God as the Nephites did (3 Nephi 19). Nor do we teach the need to become the sons of God, referring to Jesus Christ as the God to whom we’re to become a child, who then through adoption becomes our Eternal and Heavenly Father (John 1:11-12, Ether 3:14, D&C 34, Moroni 7:48). No, we sing I am a child of God and teach our children to sing it as well, with no thought to needing to become the Child of Christ as taught in the Gospel of John, BoM and D&C.
The Christo-centric theology and message of the Book of Mormon was hijacked by James Talmage’s Heavenly Father-centric reformations in the 1890’s and was officially proclaimed by the 1st presidency in 1916 as the church’s theological doctrine. Funny how our theology needed a proclamation to set things straight 86 years after the church’s founding. You don’t do something like that unless the theology is unclear because new ideas have been introduced. Jesus was demoted from the Eternal Father to righteous spirit brother, becoming a child of God was replaced with you are a child of God with no need to aspire to his adoption. But hey the Book of Mormon is full of these truths and is very Christo-centric, you’d be surprised what an uncorrelated study of it’s text teaches and how bad they contradict the current model of the Godhead in our church today. 😉
Greg, that bone in Siberia is 24,000 years old. How can it have anything to do with the Book of Mormon? How does that fit with the Book of Mormon timelines? The Jaradites were after Noah’s flood, less than 6,000 years ago according to D&C 77 and gospel doctrine curriculum manuals. How can it have anything to do with Lehi’s people, who allegedly arrived in the Americas about 600 BC? It doesn’t even fit with the myth of Adam and Eve.
Sigh…
Trying to rationalize spiritual truths with secular knowledge will never be effective. Though physical evidence may reaffirm or testify of what you know, what you feel and what the spirit testifies to to you is a truly sacred experience that cannot be explained through secular truths; especially to those with the express intent of proving you wrong. Someone will always come back with a “well did you know this?!” The only way to get an undeniable witness of the Book of Mormon is to read it, without the intent of proving it wrong or seeking empirical evidence that will aid you in your search to prove a point. Read it with an open mind, with the intent of seeking truth. Try to apply its concepts to your life. Pay attention to how you feel when you read it. Honestly kneel before God, and pray to know if it is true. This book has only brought me peace, a peace that I cannot and will not attempt to explain. Christ has extended an open invitation to “come unto him” and I testify that this book has only brought me closer to my Savior, Jesus Christ, who cares for each of us, for you and me, so deeply that he suffered an infinite atonement so that we could return to Our Father in Heaven. For those of you who are lost, confused, hopeless, faithless or seeking truth, I testify that God loves you, and he is deeply concerned and interested in your well being and desires your eternal happiness. He loves you. I know Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, I know the Book of Mormon is true. Try it for yourself. I hope it brings you the same happiness, peace, and light that it has brought into my life.
I like what you wrote Greg. I agree with the sentiment that a distancing of myself from regular engagement with the Book has a startling effect. The effect is like a steady procession of a fog of darkness and confusion. That is my experience, repeatedly, and for me serves as an additional confirmation of the divine nature of the Book. One thing that you, me, and the opponents of your conclusions can probably all agree to:The Book inspires passionate responses for and against it.
Patrick Johnson. You were doing great Patrick until the last bit. Not a single shred of evidence has been found or could be to support your claim. Still, it is a fact that the Mormon people are here now and are a powerful force, I believe, for good direction in a lost world. “By their fruits shall ye know them” and Mormons are doing great – and growing is my wish for you.
When I’ve asked in the past several missionaries how they know the Book of Mormon is true, the overwhelming answer I get is that they’ve prayed about it, and received a testimony.
Some have said that it’s a gradual feeling they’ve come to trust. Others have said that it is a quicker or more sudden feeling of peace that comes over them that reassures them that the Book of Mormon is true.
The next question I ask is, does this feeling or testimony, slowly or quickly, give you an absolute assurance of truth? To a man (and one sister missionary), they’ve said yes–absolutely, one hundred percent.
The next question I usually ask is: do you mind if I test that through a little thought experiment?
They usually balk for a moment, but after I explain to them that understanding why they have such faith in their testimony is important to me, they usually agree.
Here’s the thought experiment:
_________________
The whole world has changed, and now a dictator has taken over. Unlike Pol Pot, or Mao Tse Tung, this madman wants to retain the smart people, not kill them like other dictators have.
This time he comes to your house to give you a test to see if you’d be a worthy citizen for his new state.
And his eccentric test is this: he gives you a really obscure question, like–what is the mean distance from Europa to Saturn in the last twelve cycles, or some other question you couldn’t possibly know the answer to, but which has a verifiable answer none the less.
He, not completely without mercy, gives you a sheet of paper, saying that on this sheet, is the right answer–among ninety-nine other answers that are wrong. Your job of course, is to find the right answer.
Here’s his promise to you if you find the right answer: he’ll give you 10 million bucks, and promises to never bother you or your family again: you’ve passed his test and earned the right to be left alone from here on out. You and your family will also be secure in your new-found fortune.
But here’s the rest of his promise to you if you’re wrong: he’ll take ten million dollars from you. And if you don’t have it, he’ll take your house, your cars, and he’ll take your family away and indenture them to a life of hard labor until you pay him everything you owe. You’ll have nothing and your family will suffer if you pick the wrong answer.
He leaves to give you time to think about your answer.
As a good Mormon you kneel down desperately to Heavenly Father and you take your need to Him in prayer, and you take hold especially of the promises in Moroni 10:4-5:
“4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”
[Now please understand, that when proposing this scenario, I’m not trying to be cynical to Mormons, nor irreverent to LDS Scripture here. Honestly. I’ve asked many LDS members in the past if this is a fair test of those passages and if they would apply in this situation. They’ve replied that they believe that it would be fair and that it would apply. I apologize if anyone believes my use of these verses is disrespectful. That’s truly not my intent.]
Laying hold of these verses and believing that Heavenly Father will manifest the truth to you of all things if you ask with a sincere heart, and trusting that He knows that you are are in great need and your family is in great danger, you pray very hard for an answer to the dictator’s question.
And you begin to have a feeling–in fact you discern that it is the same feeling you had that confirmed for you that the Book of Mormon was true, and that Joseph Smith was God’s true prophet–in fact–you recognize that it’s the same feeling that you based your testimony on, that gave you a one hundred percent assurance of the truth.
And you begin to have this feeling concerning just one particular answer out of the hundred listed on the sheet of paper the dictator gave you.
Just then, two things happen: A guard comes in with your family in tow–and in chains: their eyes adjust to the light in the room. Your wife is quietly crying while she tightly grips your young children. Your kids and wife suddenly see you, your kids begin to cry out for you. You know that when the dictator comes back, you will with your answer have the chance to secure their safety and freedom. Or you might never see them again.
It all depends on you and your answer.
And the other thing that happens? You forgot–you have your smartphone in your breast pocket–and you can check your answer to the dictator’s question.
Here’s the question: do you check your answer on your smartphone?
I know it’s a strange question to ask in the middle of possibly losing your family to a madman–but if you do check your smartphone, then you really weren’t one hundred assured of the answer. Maybe it was Heavenly Father, or maybe it was just your imagination.
But if you don’t check your smartphone, then you could possibly be relegating your wife and children to a life of misery or worse… based on a feeling. And remember, this was the same feeling you received when you gained a testimony.
So…. what do you do?
____________
When I first presented this scenario to two missionaries and an LDS friend who sat in, I really wasn’t sure what their response would be.
Perhaps they would all stare at me directly in the eyes and tell me that their trust in their testimony is so strong that they wouldn’t need anything else. They wouldn’t need to check their answer on a smartphone.
Or perhaps they would say it’s just a stupid scenario and that Heavenly Father doesn’t answer prayers that way.
But what all three of them did….was hesitate. They didn’t know how to answer.
That told me at least two things.
1) they were all good men who loved their families deeply.
2) they really weren’t 100% sure that the Book of Mormon was true or that Joseph Smith was God’s true prophet based on their personal testimonies alone.
From other missionaries, the reply I would get was, “well, you’re a Catholic–wouldn’t you check your smartphone?”
My reply was always yes, because my testimony isn’t based solely on a feeling that something was true. It’s also based on evidence that I can show is true (some would argue with Catholics about that, but that’s another post I think).
Still others would complain, “perhaps Heavenly Father would really want us to check our smartphone–it was in our pocket all along for crying out loud”.
My reply would be–yes, I think He would too. He would want us to verify that the testimonies we believe we get from our feelings are really true.
Yet what I’ve never heard any thoughtful Mormon say having presented this scenario many times now, is that they’d trust only their feelings in such important and dire circumstances–like when trying to save their family from harm, when other means are available.
They wouldn’t place their trust in their own feelings when it comes to their family’s physical well-being. So why trust them when it comes to their family’s eternal well-being?
For two reasons I think:
1) there’s no sense of urgency involved in having to make a reasonable assessment as to whether feelings are a reliable indicator of truth.
2) everybody else in the LDS Church is confirming that your trust in the Book of Mormon is valid based solely on a feeling that it’s true. So if everybody else says it’s ok to believe your feelings, and they’re smart people, then maybe it is. Maybe they know something you don’t.
I think there’s kind of a “group-think” going on here; in that, everyone else in the LDS church is using your testimony that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is God’s true prophet–even as you’re using their testimony to confirm your own.
Yet whenever push comes to shove, and you’re left alone to trust whether those claims are really true; when there’s something really to lose–everyone checks their smartphone.
The LDS truth claim, even more important than the truth of Book of Mormon, is that feelings alone reveal truths.
It’s an unreasonable premise to base religious belief on. And contrary to some who would say otherwise, religious beliefs rely on the premise that faith is not unreasonable. But if all belief relies on a premise that ultimately isn’t provable (where the Bible says to prove all things, 1 Thess. 5:21), then it also isn’t reliable either. You can’t show that the Book of Mormon is true based on feelings alone. And I think the above thought experiment proves this–even to good, faithful members of the LDS Church themselves.
“Joseph Smith was no different from L.Ron Hubbard or Warren Jeffs”
Bwahahahahahahaha…oh, wait, you seriously believe this?
“Considering what happened to the “September Six”, that allowing facts and arguments that show the church in a negative light to be published by faithful members can be grounds for Excommunication, He’s being quite bold.”
Bwahahahaha. tell us. What happened with the September Six folks. :>)
“Any believing LDS member who allows truths like “Joseph Smith had 2 wives that were only 14 years old” to be published, not censored, on his site, is to be congratulated.”
I’ve been reading that on pro-Mormon sites for years now.
“Truth is, I can’t think of a single pro-Mormon site that exposes more Mormons to facts that show how easily Mormonism is falsified.”
Here are two of my favorites:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Table_of_Contents
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/index.html
“”The D&C clearly says the world is around 7,000 years old, but we know factually it is more like 4.5 BILLION years old with fossils showing us life existed for several billion years”.”
Here are some things to consider.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth
I guess you understand that when the corrections do not match historical documents found this is a problem. Like the Book of Abraham was found and does not translate at all to what is written. Joseph said what some of the symbols mean. All completely wrong. The New Testament “corrections” he made are inconsistent with the rest of the Bible and with historical documents since found.
I agree the changes sounded good to me as well. Until I left LDS and really studied the Bible. I then found them quite inconsistent with the teachings in the Bible. Much more in line with some of the other false Christian churches.
The possible source of King Benjamin was not in the bible it was a Methodist Preacher who preached sometimes in Palmyra.
The following is His work. No this does not attack the Church it is just the record of this mans preaching. Very similar to King Benjamin. Bishop M’Kendree.
http://archive.org/stream/cu31924029471152/cu31924029471152_djvu.txt
The Church says Joseph most likely did not attend. But he would have known many who did so do not know the point of Joseph not attending. If he knew those who did the teaching could have been told to him. Perhaps even written down by someone.
The Methodist camp meeting to which you are referring was the final speech of one beloved Benjamin Paddock. Tents were placed in a semi-circle and open towards the stand and ‘altar’. I used to be “all in” until I finally took the time to carefully research the Church. I am heartbroken at what I found.
If truth is self evident and needs few words to it hold up, then for me there is one truth: There is no God. These four words are self evident to millions. No evidence exists to support any other truth, there is only faith and wanting. Faith and wanting do not created truth; they only create myths for others to hold onto. And that is cool, as long as no one comes knocking at my door. Wait, better yet, knock. It will be opened. I do enjoy trading ideas, even if I don’t agree with them.
I need the Book of Mormon too. NEED it! I have lived without and with it. With is exponentially better 🙂 Thank you so much for sharing this beautiful testimony.
The LDS Church claims that the Book of Mormon is also historical. So just like the Bible, there should be historical references that are verifiable.
So the question is a reasonable one: where is the historical evidence for the Book of Mormon? Since it makes not only spiritual claims, but historical or ‘secular’ ones also–a good way to show it is indeed credible, is by first confirming it’s historically credible. This is the same test that Christ talked about in Luke 5:24:
“But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.”
Christ made a claim here. And that claim verified the spiritual truth that He had the power to forgive sins. (Even for agnostics who may say this story never happened, a process or precedent was still established here by Christ who made a claim that COULD be verified [the sick man with palsy got up and walked], and by doing this, He established a reason to believe a claim than COULDN’T be directly verified [the man’s sins were forgiven]).
In the same way, the Book of Mormon makes a claim through the historical facts it says really occurred. And by showing that these claims are true, it gives reason to believe it’s spiritual claims are true also.
But this is where the Book of Mormon seems to falter. There is no credible historical, secular evidence for the Book of Mormon. So why should we believe it’s greater spiritual claims are credible? Since credible historical evidence exists in abundance for the Bible, shouldn’t we also expect that for the Book of Mormon, since God is the author of both?
Truth claims based on a feelings-based testimony actually lends credence to the idea that the Book of Mormon in all honesty, is not credible. And that’s because it shows that historical evidence isn’t available, or else it would be used to show the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
As silly as it sounds, if I have a testimony that two and two are five, and at the same time have evidence that it isn’t, and if I simply disregard that evidence in favor of the testimony, I’m going to be overpaying my gas bill every single month.
So it also seems with the Book of Mormon. If I disregard the evidence in favor of a testimony, then how do I know that I’m not being shortchanged here too? What evidence do I really have that confirms it truthfulness other than my testimony or other’s testimonies based on feelings alone?
Shouldn’t all the evidence lead to its truthfulness if in fact it really is true? Then why do I need a testimony in order to see that the Book of Mormon is true–first?
I loved this article, Greg. You are insightful and I love the things you give me to think about. I am amazed at the number of people who have jumped down your throat about what you shared here. Sort of reminds me of all the so called “learned” who fought against Joseph as a very young man, Pearl of great price, history of Joseph Smith. People’s reactions certainly say a lot about them. Anyway, I, too, love the Book of Mormon and an so glad you wrote what you have. Thank you!!
Thanks a lot!
I believe that God will never allow the Book of Mormon to be unequivocally proven OR disproven empirically in our present world. I believe God wants us to figure it out through faith.
My testimony (i.e., “knowledge”) that the Book of Mormon is what it says it is is not based on “proof” of the scientific sort. Rather, it is the fruit of my faith and spiritual effort. For that reason, when I read something that seems to scientifically support the Book of Mormon, I think to myself, “Hm. That’s interesting. I wonder if that’s true?” And, when I see something that appears to contradict the Book of Mormon, I think to myself “Hm. That’s interesting. I wonder if that’s true?”
If you have faith in science (or history, psychology, etc., etc.) well and good. Science has revealed a great deal of useful information and some valuable truth. It also has a convenient connection to perceived reality. But don’t for a minute think that you’re knowledge drawn from science is any less faith-based than my testimony of the Book of Mormon. You have faith in scientific methods, faith in scientific empiricism, and faith in the scientists who practice it. Unfortunately, with a better telescope or improved techniques, the whole meaning of things can turn upside-down (see President Uchtdorf, October 2014). Science is not science if it is not constantly challenged and changed. Also, many, possibly most, scientists are honest individuals, stating what they’ve learned or figured out or believe to be true. Unfortunately for some, tenure and funding can powerful draws to sometimes not tell the whole truth, not to mention mere personal biases. Scientists are, after all, human.
You are free to challenge my faith-based knowledge. Just remember you stand on the shifting sands of faith in a constantly changing world-view called “science” and its very human practitioners.
Greg, thank you for your post. I as well have a LDS blog for others to turn to when their faith is failing, I understand the ridicule and opinions you receive. In the world today, there are enough facts, opinions, “wisdom”, quotes, historical evidences, scientific discoveries, spiritual witnesses, testimonies, truth, lies and so forth that any opinion and stance can be proven with ease and any can be disproven. As a whole, all mankind is forced to be ignorant because there is too much information for anyone to possibly not be ignorant. You will never know all sides of the story nor all opinions involved and science will continue to progress, so for all we know a fact I quote now could at this moment be changing.
At this time, active members of the LDS church, inactive members, ex-mormons, those of other denominations of Christianity, atheists, and those who believe in a different god all assail each other constantly. Each deserve an opinion and should be listened to. But everyone claims their cause is “good and the right one,” and that leads into a culture of condescension.
But in necessity to sanctify each member of society’s character, it needs be called to each that voice their opinion the unbeatable fact that we all have an equal right to think, act and believe as we will. We each hold that “pursuit of happiness.” There are mormon martyrs who have their reasons of dying for their faith and their are ex-mormons who have their reasons of changing their beliefs.
In honesty, it is all a waste of time. The answer you are searching for will always come no matter what side of the argument you are on. A call to each is to personally, for yourself, seek what makes you happiest and in all a better person in our society. And doing that has a REQUISITE that you don’t just read anonymous opinions online.
Anyone who is honest can say that regardless of beliefs, opinions, or facts; we all should strive to be our best selves and to better society and our lives in the way that only we uniquely can.
Thank you Greg for doing what you can to do that, I appreciate your work.
A man’s true character is revealed when he can act without consequence. And these comments below that I have read through are an example of that. It is vulnerability and passion against vulnerability and passion. One’s pros are the other’s cons and it leads to everyone calling each other ignorant and hiding behind keyboards.
I hope that everyone who comes across this comment of mine can find for themselves what they believe and what resonates within them and that it creates progressive passion for them. The finale you find for your life is not dictated by where you end but where you start your journey now.
Thanks Greg!!
This is by far the most humbling comment I’ve ran across so far in these types of blogs.
Just because they have a “more complicated heritage” doesn’t mean they came from the middle east. Their middle eastern heritage, in the rare cases they find it is lower than ALL other continents including Africa. The Book of Mormon talks about the millions and millions of people that covered the entire face of the land, from the north to the south, east to west (thats close to verbatim). If thats the case, their DNA would be much more common. People find one or two random proofs and think that it solves everything. If the Book of Mormon were true you would find “reformed Egyptian” all over the place in ancient American artifacts. Not only are there none, there were no horses, no steel, no giant battles leaving hundreds of thousands of corpses and their gear anywhere. It just doesn’t hold up and a 2% of Middle Eastern heritage found in Native Americans isn’t going to change that.