An Evangelical Pastor Writes on A Mormon’s Blog And Nails It

[The following is written as a guest post by an Evangelical Pastor of an 800 member congregation in Bucks County Pennsylvania. Pastor Doug Dwyer has reached out to me on various posts in which he found common ground and displayed what I consider to be true Christianity. Though I’ve never met him in person, I consider him a friend. I’m sure he’d be happy to respond to your comments below.]

Living In A Post Christian World

Several months ago I attended a conference in North Carolina entitled Living in a Post Christian World. The speaker commented on the fact that we have seen changes in our society at a speed that is breath taking. In so many ways moral conservatives feel like Alice and the looking glass where up is down and right is wrong. Our children will never know the world we knew. Consider our society’s changing attitude toward marriage. In 1993 not one nation on the planet sanctioned same sex marriage-not one!

In May 2015 once morally conservative Ireland legalized same sex marriage and by a healthy percentage. In our own country most experts believe the Supreme Court will rule on the legality of same sex marriage throughout the country in a way favored by its supporters. The shift in public opinion has made it challenging for those of us who hold to moral standards taught in Scripture. When an Oregon bakery owned by Aaron and Melissa Klein politely refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple because of their Christian faith the Klein’s began receiving numerous hate-filled emails as well as mounting legal bills. The Lesbian couple filed suit against the Klein’s for just under 100 aspects of suffering in order to receive damages including “high blood pressure,” “distrust of men” and “mental rape.” When concerned family and friends set up a Go Fund Me account to help the Klein’s cover some of their legal fees-Go Fund Me shut it down. Other businesses around the country are facing similar challenges and the courts are almost always unsympathetic towards moral conservatives.

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The Boy Scouts of America, the largest private youth organization in the United States prohibited atheists, agnostics and until January 2014 “known or avowed homosexuals” from membership in its scouting programs. In May of 2015 BSA President Gary Gates told the national meeting of the BSA that he believed the current policy of excluding openly gay adults as “unsustainable” and should be changed as soon as October of this year. To say that churches who hold BSA charters are now caught in a quandary is an understatement!

However there is an even deeper issue for those of us who believe in God and moral truth-in a society gone bad. The churches of America are next on the chopping block.

When she was Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton made a strong plea for gay rights when speaking at a UN meeting in Geneva, Switzerland. As a presidential candidate her words are chilling:

“Religious beliefs are standing in the way of protecting the rights of LGBT people.”

What restrictive policy could “President” Hillary Clinton seek to enact upon the churches of this nation. What happens if our doctrines and convictions are deemed “intolerant” “hateful” “unloving” by a society far removed from the Judeo-Christian values that once strengthened and nourished our country?

No wonder Evolutionary Biologist Richard Dawkins recently said that “children need to be protected from the religion of their parents” and likens religious upbringing to a form of child abuse. For morally conservative people of faith our views may even preclude us from holding jobs and getting promotions. Those outside the moral revolution do not score high in terms of Fortune 500 companies and their commitment to diversity.

How does an LDS or Evangelical respond to “Gay Pride Month” at their company? Simply “getting along” with everyone may not satisfy our culture’s insistence that we also celebrate. According to Liberal Theologian Theo Hobson three events must take place in a culture for a moral revolution to take place:

“That which was condemned is now celebrated; that which was celebrated is now condemned and those who will not celebrate are to be condemned.”

It is pretty clear that all three have taken place and the last one is sobering for us. I take comfort in 1 Peter 1:1-5 where we are reminded that we are strangers and sojourners in this world and our hope is a living one and is imperishable. We may be shocked at the decline and confusion we see in our culture but God is not and no matter how things may seem He is in control.

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doug dwyerPastor Doug Dwyer is a native of Long Island, New York and has lived in Pennsylvania for almost 18 years. He earned his B.S. in Management and Information Processing from the State University of New York and his Master of Divinity from New Brunswick Theological Seminary. He is an ordained minister in the Reformed Church in America. Before entering full time ministry he was employed at Doubleday & Company and later Barnes & Noble serving in Operations, Technical Support and Supervisory positions. Currently he is the Senior Pastor of an 800 member church nestled in the rolling hills of beautiful Bucks county. He has been a supporter of building civil and respectful relationships that fosters positive dialogue between Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals. He is married to the love of his life, Jane, and has two sons. In his spare time he and his family enjoy hiking, swimming and traveling.

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50 thoughts on “An Evangelical Pastor Writes on A Mormon’s Blog And Nails It

  1. Alex Eisenberg

    Greg, how disingenuous of you to post this, you you’ll get lots of criticism, but these are not your words, hah? Low let me see… Morals were better in the past? Joseph Smith, your prophet and the next 8 Mormon prophets were authorized to sleep with teenage girls, and other men’s wives, he was married at that time. Now our so-called immoral society calls it Pedophilia and mysogyni. Slavery was the rule just 150 years ago in America as well. It seems you and your friend want to go back to those better days. If same sex marriage will affect my straight family, your family or your friend’s, who is the gay person in your marriage? Persecution complex affects your bigotry and the narrow minded Christians in general! Get over that, thankfully everyday more people are aware that gays ARE a vulnerable group that needs the same civil rights of the rest of the population.

    • Larry

      Alex, you are obviously an anti-religion bigot. Your bigotry against religion oozes from every word you post. The hatred you must have in your heart against those that love their religion obviously consumes you.

      What I find interesting, is it isn’t the LDS or Evangelicals you need to worry about – they love homosexuals, they just think they are sinning. You need to worry about the fastest growing religion in the world that promotes beheading and burning homosexuals and they number well over a billion. Oddly enough it’s the liberal anti-religion bigots like you that defend Islam. Islam will help you love Christianity someday – soon, very soon.

      • Alex Eisenberg

        Lmao Larry! You are projecting your hate on someone you don’t know! This is hilarious! Is that how you defend your homophobic bigotry? Nothing to defend the polygamous convicted conman who founded your church? You’re a good example of the moral relativism your prophet talked about in the last conference… Nothing worries me, only those who want to impose their bigotry on the rest of us in this free country. Good luck with your distorted view of the world…

      • Alex Eisenberg

        Larry, is that your gay-loving answer, that they´re in your view sinning, thus going to hell?? It´s ironically hilarious how you define love and acceptance!! Typical religious bigotry!! You´re just projecting your hate on someone you don´t know!
        There you go, christian persecution complex again, now the Muslims, right? They have and will always be a minority in this country…
        My only worry is christian bigotry trying to be imposed in all of us, despite the first amendment, that should protect USA from religion…
        Just keep your homophobic opinions to yourself, mind your own business!! Apply what your Master Jesus taught, don´t judge!!!

        • Jim Love

          Alex, I guess it is easy for someone like yourself to spew a bunch of crap since you profess yourself as a non-believer. I find it ironic that someone who does not believe Jesus, yet uses those things taught by Jesus as their front for debate. And you mis-spoke, it is not Larry that says a gay person is sinning, it is the scriptures that my “Master Jesus” taught. That is what says it is a sin, not Larry imp-articular. Larry is only speaking from what his belief and principals are based on, thus making gay participation a sin. And not Larry the judge of it, that comes much later than Larry or you or I. You say “Typical religious bigotry,” I am not sure you really know what the word “bigot” means. The bigot here is actually you. You are the one who is closed minded. If you don’t want to be a believer that is your entitlement and opinion. I personally do not understand why, but then every non-believer I have ever come across can only spew rhetoric and argument about how supposedly stupid I am for being a believer other than them telling me why they don’t. Your cause here might be very much different if you approached all of this differently rather than just straight attacks.

          What is “christian persecution complex,” this sounds like something you created that you suggest you suffer from. Because a christian professes belief in our “Master Jesus” word, that makes us persecutors of his word, how so? And if you believe that to be true, what does that make you? You also said that Larry was projecting his hate on someone he does not know. What are you doing here? Your anti-rhetoric can clearly be assumed and or taken as hate to someone you don’t know.

          Again, you say “Christian Bigotry,” to be imposed in all of us. Christian cannot be imposed, it is impossible. Christian is a noun, and someone who believes in Christ and is a follower of Christ and his teachings. It is impossible to have this forced upon you, you have to accept it on your own. And thank you for the reminder to apply what my “Master Jesus” has taught. Have a great day!

          • Aj

            It is those who practice sexual immoral acts. Not all gays have sexual intercourse. No disrespect. I have researched this myself. Many refuse anal intercourse because it is too painful. But they do however do other things with their mate.
            But yes, gay anal sex is sexually immoral and yes it is in the KJV Bible.
            As for the women anything sexually immoral is sin unto God as well as straights. God favors no one. Hate the sin not the person but do not encourage it nor judge them.

          • Alex Eisenberg

            Jim, I won’t waste much of my time in such a brain-washed sheep like you… You and Larry follow the version of the Jesus of the Bible (which by the way has no bearing on real history!) that’s why it is YOU who must apply his teachings to your life. Same sex marriage is a legal issue, let your religious ideas out of it, that is so simple. Is your marriage going to be affected by SSM? If so, is it you the gay person or your wife? I see you’re the typical mormon! Your sacred cow Joey Smith will always have a free pass in your mind, right? No matter how evil, sadistic, victimizer he was, because mormon Jesus told him so… Wow!!

          • Jim Love

            Alright Alex, I will play, I will take your bait. It is obvious that you choose not to even listen to anyone’s opinion, thoughts, cares, etc. You MO is attack and see what you can accomplish and then call yourself victorious when the other no longer replies. And that is fine I get it, that’s you.

            1) You are a self proclaimed “atheist,” that’s cool to each his own.

            2) Your motive for being on a post that is religious based when you are a self proclaimed “atheist” kind of makes me wonder. Are you searching for something, or is it just hobby to spew your rhetoric and attacks? It has to be one or the other, you have not other option. I will wait for your answer on that.

            3) Your comparisons of Joseph Smith to David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, Jim Jones, etc. is apples and oranges. Not even in the same ball park. But we will have to agree to disagree because that argument would just end up in circles.

            4) You mentioned Todd Compton and Richard Bushman, two very smart and intelligent men. Because you have read their books, this is an assumption. I also assume that you may have not read their books and rather just perused them or even just took those names from someone else who told you about them and took specific text to try and demonize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It makes me go back to my #2 point.

            “Even though I understand that some will read my book only to glean “negative” details about Joseph Smith’s polygamy, I am cheered when I find people who have read the book all the way through and have sympathetically relived the lives of 33 fascinating, remarkable women. Judging from their “review” of my book, the Tanners are not among that group. They merely excerpt passages about Joseph Smith for sensational effect.” ~Todd Compton *The Tanners were two disgruntled Ex-Mormons who choose to fight against the church, and print history of the church from family history that was “Claim” rather than actual fact. They admitted that their writings were claims, not based on any evidence. They questioned the church an choose to publish claims on their questions and organize a place with which people had questions to build. They removed their own names from the records of the church, yet they are no longer relevant to society as Jerald passed away in 2006. Of course I am sure you know about the Tanners already.

            My point, neither Todd Compton or Richard Bushman are afraid of history, they answer it, but you have to read the whole book and what they are saying to understand. You can’t just pick and choose what excerpts you want to take from their writings.

            5) So lastly I will go with this. You keep coming up with this dumb rationalization to how my marriage or anyone else’s is going to be affected by SSM? You like to suggest either I or my wife are gay because I disagree with SSM. Personally I could care less if two dudes or two ladies want to get married. If they want to be gay, go be gay, be the best gay person you can possibly be. I really don’t give a care to it at all. The point being made here is that as you state is a legal issue. So because I don’t agree with it according to you is that makes either me or my wife gay. Hmmmmm! Have no clue how you came to that conclusion. My guess is you heard someone say something like that and you can’t relay the story as good as they may have told it. So let me help you. If someone does not agree with SSM, or they believe being gay is a choice, it does not make them or their spouse gay. It is their opinion, based on biblical teachings which they believe in and some scientific proof that although some folks could be born a bit chemically off. They still have the choice to make based on right and wrong. And it has been wrong since the beginning of time for a man and a man to be together and the same for the ladies. Thus the choice. If I am born and I grow up liking to steal things, I have the choice still whether I do it or not. Just as if I am born and grow up finding boys attractive, I have the choice still whether I am going to act on it or not. It is only recent history where only Gays and those that try to support them say that it is not wrong. But further history and scripture to a believer tell us otherwise. Again a circle conversation if you can’t approach it with an open mind.

            6) One more thing, when was Joseph Smith ever a cow? With your reference to “My Sacred Cow Joey Smith”, I assume you meant the same thing I am thinking. I may have missed your point, or was that just an attack by you out of anger.

            Don’t be mad, it’s cool. If you want to be atheist, be the best atheist you can be. If you want to be gay, be the best gay person you can be. But if patrolling believer blogs and sites gets you fired up, you may want to find a new hobby. Because you seem very angry about all of this.

            Take care man, and come to think about it. It’s funny that I (a mormon) know more about my church and the authors and historians you quote from. Have a great day!

    • Stephen

      Those prophets were not authorized to sleep with other women. If you’re talking about the cases where Joseph Smith married other men’s wives or married girls as young as 14, those were not really marriages by law, they were mostly sealings in the temple. Those were for women who would not have had that saving ordinance in the future or in their current situation. For those cases where he was married by law to other women, it was because those women did not have financial stability on their own, because their husbands left or died. The LDS community is a very generous community, and at that time where plural marriage was acceptable, doing that for someone was totally okay. Though it may be true that some prophets slept with other women, a) they never slept with another man’s wife, only women that they were married to, and b) Joseph Smith only ever slept with Emma, his first wife. The commandment of polygamy was not an excuse to sleep with other women, because at least with Joseph Smith, he only slept with his first wife Emma, even though he had other wives. In fact, when God first gave the commandment of polygamy, most people in the church, including Joseph Smith and future prophet Brigham Young, were very uncomfortable with the idea. But that commandment was formally discontinued in 1890, which means that the history of the LDS church has had a longer time span without polygamy than it has with it. The history of polygamy in the church and the idea of gay marriage are two very different things. You can’t compare polygamy with gay marriage, especially if you think polygamy in the church was an excuse for sleeping with several women, because it was anything but that. And how does slavery in the US have anything to do with this? When Joseph Smith ran for President of the US, part of his campaign was to abolish slavery, and this was decades before the Civil War. You’re comparing some very different issues as if they were the same. Look, gay people are definitely facing a lot of discrimination, which I and the LDS church would agree is very saddening to see, but marriage is only one right out of several that gay people are being deprived of, and it’s the only one that the LDS church doesn’t support. The only one. You can’t assume that just because the LDS church doesn’t support gay marriage that that means the church supports gay discrimination, because that is completely untrue. I have a few friends who classify themselves as gay, and that part of them hasn’t affected my friendship with them at all, and I’m a member of the LDS church. Just because I don’t support their view of gay marriage doesn’t mean that I discriminate against them, because I don’t. They’re really great friends and I’m glad I have them in my life, and they’ve told me how much they value my friendship. I don’t want my right to believe whatever I want to believe taken away just because my view of one issue can be interpreted as discrimination, even when I don’t believe it is. Marriage is a religious practice, so we shouldn’t have to be forced to do anything with it we don’t want to. Our practices are defined by God, whether you want to believe that or not, and God has said that marriage must only be between a man and a woman, unless God commands something else at another time, which has only happened a few times in Biblical times, and once in our modern day, all dealing with polygamy. God has never nor will he ever allow marriage between personages of the same sex, that’s just the way it is. But God has also said to love everyone, and so I choose to follow that, because I love God, and I have grown to love people as well, no matter how different they are than me.

        • Stephen

          I’m not entirely sure, but there was a purpose behind it. Just because I’m not sure of the answer doesn’t mean that it’s because Joseph Smith wanted to sleep with 14 year old girls, because that is perveted and completely untrue. No decent man would ever think of doing that, ESPECIALLY a prophet of God and wonderful man like Joseph Smith. There was a purpose behind it, but it was not anything evil. Joseph Smith would not do that. He was a very humble, kind, patient, and respectful yet powerful man. He would not create some huge sex industry in the name of Christ. There was some divine purpose behind it, and that’s all I need to know. It doesn’t affect my salvation in any way. It would if he did sleep with them, but that scenario is highly highly unlikely to have happened, so I don’t need to worry about it. His teachings are way too inspiring and glorify Christ way too much for him to be a man of that grievous of sin.

          • Alex Eisenberg

            Stephen, The wives of Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, Jim Jones and other perverts defended them the way you´re doing it with Joseph Smith! Do you call those marriages saving ordinances? Why not sealing those girls as daughters?? Why marrying Marinda Johnson (Orson Hyde´s wife) and other sealed wives? Read your doctrine (D&C 132, Jacob 2) and your own history!! There´s many books written by LDS historians (i.e. Todd Compton, Richard Bushman, etc.). It was all about sex! Many of his wives wrote a diary, and gave a court affidavit! So it´s undeniable!! There´s sexual accusations against Joseph Smith in courts!
            Would you call D&C anti-mormon literature? It´s funny that I (an atheist) know more about your church history than yourself! Don´t be dishonest, face the truth…

            Do you have a conscience that tells you what is wrong and right?
            Would you give your wife or your daughter to Tommy Monson if he said the Lord told him so?? I think you would!!

            You´re right! A decent man wouldn´t marry other men´s wives on their men´s back! Or at least he would ask his wife for her opinion!! Neither would establish a bank in Kirtland to screw others out of their money. A decent man wouldn´t copy secret rituals from the Masonic group and then declare it as inspired by God for his temple!! The list is looong…
            Mormons keep amazing me!! Blaming their God for such horrendous commandments to save Joseph´s head??
            Wow!!

          • An.

            If you really did your research, you would see that although he was convicted of everything from adultery to polygamy to disturbance of the peace, there was no evidence as to any relations with anyone except Emma, his primary wife. He was ultimately only sentanced because he was in fact legally married to multiple women, but no account of polygamous sexual activity had any proof, and the secondary wives had agreeing testimonies of why they were married and what their relations were to the Prophet. The truth is, there were many more women willing to come to Zion, and yes, they could have easily been adopted as daughters, but Mormon doctrine teaches that one must be sealed to a spouse in the temple to enter the highest exaltation, so who do you think these young women should have married? There wasn’t exactly a surplus of men, as many stories of pioneers an new converts include a mother leaving her abusive husband with her kids. In my own genealogical searches, I found on such case with my fourt great grandmother, who left her husband in England after he refused to even read the Book of Mormon. She later remarried in Utah and left our family a journal. She became the primary wife of my fourth great grandfather, and she records how he only attended to her, and not his secondary wives. In fact, many times you wouldn’t even see your secondary wives after you were sealed, because the saving ordinance was completed, no affair nescisary. We have many accounts like that of my grandmother, from all perspectives, and the only accounts that speak of affairs with secondary wives immediately lead to excommunication from the church. I refer you to another case involving my family, in the U.S. Supreme Court (Ex Parte Nielsen, 131 U.S. 176 (1889)), in which he and fellow Mormons were convicted of polygamous adultery, but were found not guilty (they served terms for the same reasons Joseph Smith did, simply the legal charge) on terms of it simply not happening. Simply put, your argument runs like an 1861 Southern Democrat searching for every reason to keep his slaves, completely ignoring what you need to hear and changing what you have into what you want to hear.
            If you want further proof, ask to speak with an actual expert in Mormon history, not leftist Internet whakoos

      • Laura

        Stephen, do some more research. Joseph Smith did in fact have sex with these so Called wives and impregnated some of them as well. Don’t take my word for it do some research.

    • Jim Love

      I have to say, I get tired of listening to the uneducated and the marriage attacks on Joseph Smith and other prophets of the church. This is you Alex! Allow me to educate you a bit. 1) In many counties now a days the legal age for marriage is as low as 16, 14 in some. In some middle eastern countries the allowable age for marriage is the first sign of puberty. This is todays laws. So get off the age, rape, teenage girls etc. I figure this is still not enough for you. 2) In the Catholic church of today. A boy can be married at 16, a girl at 14 with parental consent, this is a law, based on religious belief. This is just a bit of faith based info for you, even though you don’t know anything about it. I know, still not enough. 3) The ratification of agreement and law making a legal age of marriage was not introduced until 1962, December 10th, 1962 to be exact. This included the United States. So yes, you are right on this, it is called Pedophilia today, but it was COMMON back in Joseph Smiths time and even for a long time to follow.

      You brought up Slavery as if it was relevant to this. Which part of slavery are you referring too? Is it with regards to the Mongols, Islam, Rome, Celtic Tribes, Ancient Greece, the Middle Ages, Great Britain, Ireland, Africa, the vikings in Scandinavian, which one are you specifically speaking of? You cant just be generic in your rhetoric if you are going to go on the attack. But let me help you again. Slavery was pushed to be suppressed in 1926, sure slavery goes back further than that, in many of the places I named. But research your history, especially since I can only assume that you are referring to black slavery. It started with their own, the largest slave trader in the United States, was black i.e William Ellison. Slave trading in general goes all the way back to the Crusades even. You can’t just generically talk about slaves when you don’t know the history.

      So to point fingers as you are to assume somebody is thinking a certain way about a certain topic is just wrong. And you claim someone else to be a bigot. Let me educate you one last time. Bigot = A person who is intolerant to those holding a different opinions, beliefs or ideas. And by the way, In proper grammar and use of the word Bigot, it is only used properly when describing race or religion. It actually cannot be used in proper context to describe someones thoughts or actions to same sex marriage or lifestyle choice.

      I am tired from all this teaching, but please have a great day! And yes, I meant to be condescending in this message. Just want to make that clear and be honest, there is no reason for you to point that out. I purposely did that so I could demonstrate the ignorance of your post. But I really do want you to have a great day. That I truly mean.

      • Dwight Reid

        Wow, you used a lot of words, most of them correctly. Let me see if I can shorten that up for you.
        “Joseph Smith and the other “prophets” committed some serious moral atrocities but other people have done the same thing so let’s just ignore them.”

        One would think that the prophets of God would act comparable to those with the best morals, not the worst.
        But you’re special.

        • Jim Love

          Dwight, you must be a comedian because you are funny. I give you a C- for effort here. You obviously didn’t read and or comprehend what you read if that is what you came up with. But I have learned a long time ago you can’t fix stupid. I got the sarcasm though, so let me try one more time for you, I will keep it short, sorry I don’t have crayon to put it in for you to understand.

          Joseph Smith and other prophets lived their lives according to the principals of the gospel that were taught to them and received by God, thus they are called Prophets. So not only did they live by Gods law, they to are required to live by and even respect the laws of the land as well. So no serious moral atrocities were committed and or ignored. It was common from biblical times up until 1962 when age was established for marriage at 18.

          Kind of like the Constitution in a way. They wrote it, we lived and were governed by it. Yet they have amended it 27 times and our president likes to ignore it. Things change, it is part of life. Thus our freedom of choice to choose, that God granted us. And save the God is the same yesterday today and forever. I get that. Then I guess we would all fall to biblical laws if he did not allow us to govern ourselves and we would be marrying 8 and 9 year olds and younger. Hint, do some research again and look into Isaac and Rebekah, it gets even younger than that. You can’t just pick and choose what pieces suits you.

          Thanks for calling me special though, my mom thinks so too!

  2. Brooke Anderson

    It’s important for us to remember that Jesus loved those that worked the hardest to destroy him. Reacting to hostility with hostility only makes the issue inflate. I think that more than ever we need to love the sinner – but, of course, hate the sin – just as God does. Does it make us better saints if we hate those that criticize and ridicule us in return? Christ was hanged on a cross to die by those that hated him, but he still plead for Father to forgive them.

    I’m not saying to give up religious freedom or bow to the obscured laws of man. Love God. Love people. Stand for what you know to be true. Remember that fire doesn’t put fire out. Satan wants us to fight. It chases away the light.

    • Lillith70

      that this may be a small step forward to the just of any sect will join be into the prophesied Zion City and temples is a happy beginning.

      i wonder what they have reformed. Some old truisms back to the English and EU reformation era. The anti-Mormon factoids invented and passed down? How to see?

  3. Amy

    This is a very well written piece that represents so clearly the dire need to be constantly on guard to protect our freedoms to worship. It is remarkable how quickly a society established and upheld by religious values has turned against religion and conservatism. Especially chilling is Hilary Clinton’s comment to the UN. Thank you, Pastor Dwyer, for sharing your wisdom and convictions. As a Mormon, I appreciate so much when we can stand together to protect our religious freedoms.

  4. Shannon Adams

    Some of the developments of our modern society ARE frightening, and I wonder how soon Christ will return to us when people are morally selfish. But I also remember the old mantra, “fear is not of God” and try to cope with the changes in my own life and society as I believe Christ would- with Love and Faith that in the end everything will be sorted out.

  5. Annie

    I love your blog and as a parent of 3 sons, one a gay man, I just want to say that unless you face this issue in your immediate family, you probably should stay off the podium.

    I just don’t know the answer to this dilemma. I love all three of my sons. All three were raised just the same. There is no way this is a choice. And though I cannot say I’m comfortable with it, I do feel my son has the right to the same happiness any other human being has.

    I don’t see how gay marriage is going to impact heterosexual marriage. Being gay is not contagious, for goodness sakes! Them getting married doesn’t impact me any more than you eating beef impacts a Buddhist or drinking coffee impacts a Mormon’s life. Why do I care?

    My son marrying his partner will not impact any other human beings who are minding their own business and their own sins.

    I feel people should accept people as long as they are not predatory or dangerous, and let God figure it out. Everybody has fallen short, and one sin isn’t any less or more than any other.

    I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child and the perp was heterosexual – those people run in all crowds. My son has NO interest in children sexually, and is a generous and loving uncle to his nieces and nephews. He is also a wonderful, caring son. My life is very much enriched by his being my son.

    I don’t know WHY he is attracted to men, I just know it’s the way he was born. Was it exposure to hormones in the food chain while pregnant? Is it a DNA glitch? I have no idea. All I know is this is the way he is, he is my son, and I love him and will protect him and his rights like a mother bear would.

    Do I believe people like those at the bakery have a right to refuse service to gays? Again, I’m conflicted. In some ways, yes I do believe that. And my son probably would not want to give money to people who hate him anyway. Gosh, they might spit in the cake! But if you say they can discriminate against gays, then what about Jews? What about Blacks? What about Mormons!? What if they refused to bake a cake for a cultish MORMON wedding? How would you feel then?

    It’s just not simple and in the end, I think what we have to try to learn to do is be like Jesus. To love each other, to do our best not to pass judgement, and to accept people the way they are. God can figure this one out. We can rest assured, He will.

    The rest of us should just relax and make sure our OWN closets don’t have skeletons.

    • Melanie

      Annie: I will only respond to one point in your comment. A bakery should be able to serve whom they wish. As a Mormon, if I went to a bakery and was refused service, I would go elsewhere. I don’t have the time or energy to cultivate and maintain resentment against a business that thinks my church is a ‘cult.’ I would not waste my time trying to prove that it is not. In fact, if the bakers didn’t want to serve me, as a Mormon, I wouldn’t be able to leave fast enough. The decisions a business owner makes will affect the amount and quality of his/her business. If refusing service to certain people or for certain activities hurts business, he may reconsider his stand on the issue, or go into another line of work. Further, the owners of the cake shop in Oregon who refused to bake a ‘wedding’ cake for a lesbian couple do not hate them. The owners simply do not believe that two women can marry and make a couple or a family because they follow their God’s definition of said terms.
      I don’t hate homosexuals either. A marriage, however, is between a man and a woman who can then procreate children and form a family.

      • Dwight Reid

        Refusing to bake a cake for a Catholic or Mormon is not remotely the same as refusing an LGBT couple. One has a choice in being a Mormon or Catholic. Equate this to something else that is a trait from birth. Is it ok to refuse to serve the blind, the deaf, or the dark-skinned? These are people being the only thing they can be. To say that God made these people so inferior to you that baking them a cake is a sin can only be seen as insanity.

        • Jim Love

          God didn’t make them that way. You contradict yourself in more than half your comments. You can’t claim God to be unchanging and know and understand his laws and then turn around and say God made someone gay. Again, comical. It is very clear that God said, man is meant for women and women meant for man. Genesis 2:24, Genesis 3:16, I could go on but I am tired from carrying you in all of this.

        • Jim Love

          Somebody also has the choice if they want to be gay or not. There is not one proven study to show and or prove that being born gay is possible. Yet, there are studies that show and prove that their are chemical imbalances that give someone a struggle and challenge of same sex attraction. And it is for them to overcome, not to give in too. Thus it makes it wrong. It makes it wrong in science, and it makes it wrong in every sense of biblical term. Again, clinical professional proven science. Someone does not have the choice if they want to blind, deaf, or black. And you called these traits from birth. They could be for some, but what about the guy who becomes blind from and accident. C’mon really? If your going to dispute something, make sense.

    • Alex Eisenberg

      Annie, thank you for posting your feelings and experience about your son! Do not pay attention to ignorant people who are only parroting what their pastor says or from an old book written by bronze-age goat herders who didn´t know where the sun went during the night! The religious morals are just to follow rules, as brain-washed sheep (yes, sheep), not to make use of their brain to reason and think about the great deal of scientific research done in this area.
      You have a great point, how heterosexual families are affected by same-sex marriage? Don´t ask for answers, the religious will not give a reasoned answer. Thankfully this country is becoming more and more secular, in which morals and laws are to be discussed and agreed by decent people, not imposed.

    • Jim Love

      Annie, there is no question in your post that you love all your children equally and I respect that. I am glad that you support all your boys equally. But your post is a bit off base. I 100% disagree with you that you need to face the issue in your current family to be able to stand before the so called “podium.” I might even suggest that if you do personally face the issue, that you don’t need to grandstand about it as if you are the only one who knows everything about it because it is an issue for you. Your word, not mine. You are the one who said, you had an “issue” with it.

      I might suggest that you do some more of your own research on the fact that it be a “choice” not something you are born with. I will tell you that a ton of information has come out proven by science since this whole Bruce Jenner thing. In fact it was very much spelled out by the scientist and doctors interviewed during the Bruce Jenner special on TV describing same sex attraction. Don’t take my word for it, do the research, it is black and white. And you are right, your son does deserve the same happiness no matter what is choice. Rights and privileges is a different story. Just as you can’t be gay and be expected to be treated like a straight person. It baffles my mind by some who say they should be. But if you are gay and your are proud to be gay, why do you want to be treated like a person you are not. Go figure.

      Gay marriage is not going to impact a Mormon or anyone else. And we know it is not contagious, nobody ever suggested that it was, this is all you. Your best statement in your whole post was the 4th paragraph, you are right, your sons sins are his own. I personally don’t care if your son or anyone else is gay and wants to get married, doesn’t bother me one bit. But as a believer and follower of the gospel, I think it is just as OK for me to defend my beliefs and the sanctity of a marriage between a man and a woman. Does gay marriage need to be stopped. No, not really. But the gay community feeling victimized over this is getting old and ridiculous. Have you not noticed they draw the attention to themselves. You brought up the cake thing so I will address that. You didn’t see the bakers go to the media to talk about how they turned a gay couple away because of their religious belief. Oh yeah, it was the gay couple that had to take it to the media and to court. Because they were seriously harmed by this. They were so hurt they needed money for it. The mental strain was just to much for them. Really are you kidding me? This is life, bad things happen, and they even happen to good people. But good people pick themselves off and go about their business and fix the problem. They don’t run to the courts to have them fix it for them and cry about being hurt by this and seek financial gain for it. And if someone spits in their cake, so be it. Do you know how many people have probably spit in your fast food you pick up just so they can think they are funny or to show off in front of a friend. Let it go already.

      And lastly, one of your last paragraphs talks about how you think that everyone should just try to be like Jesus and not to pass judgement. Ummm, you were the one who said, “cultish mormon wedding,” how is that not passing a judgement. You are the one to assume others have skeletons in their own closets. You are the one assuming everything. Get off the high horse and grandstanding because your son is gay.

      Let’s move on here people, nothing to see here. Who cares if he is gay and who cares if you have a gay son. I sure don’t care. You brought the attention to you, much like the gay community brings the attention to them. Let it go already and use some common sense before accusing people of things.

      • Dwight Reid

        If you are black, don’t be surprised if you are not treated like a white person.
        Speaking of following your own advice, read up on twin studies regarding homosexuality. The science shows clearly that it it an inherent trait. No one has found the particular gene or combination of genes responsible but there is no doubt in the minds of those who study it that you are born with a sexual preference. Bigotry on the other hand is a choice that education might help you overcome.

        • Jim Love

          Thanks for you comment Dwight. It was funny. And when you are black, you are born black because your parents or even sometimes one of them is black. If you are gay and you have a kid, it doesn’t mean you will be born gay. Sorry to discredit your comment that I am sure you thought was the nail in the coffin. Thanks for your advice on twin studies. I actually have read about that. I might suggest even doing a bit more study that has been just recently found that science has clearly stated that same sex attraction is a choice. It explains that there is an offset in the genes, and it is a challenge, but when you are born a boy or a girl, even science says you know that you are suppose to be attracted to the opposite sex. And they have proven that it is a challenge that can be overcome. Where they have actually had people who were gay and are now straight. Make all the excuses you want, it is a choice. It is a challenge, but it is a choice. And you referred to me as a bigot, so you are another one who does not know the definition of that word. Somehow I am a bigot because I believe being gay is a choice, again, you don’t know the definition of that word. If that is the case, gays, blacks, whites, Jews, Mormons, etc. are all bigots, everyone is a bigot. Thanks though, your comment was entertaining.

    • Lillith70

      Your son has already affected you and his being open has already impacted your family I would bet.

      Everybody used to have a funny old uncle Fred. Now Uncle Fred brings his friend and each year a different friend. My own sweet family gay member is marrying and settling down. That I will be attending. I am hoping this makes him less open about his sex life. As we process this new social demographic their are many hurdles to leap.

      Accepting the person is not necessarily accepting the behavior. we are all driven by hormones in middle life and God will judge those He created for whatever purpose fairly.

      Traditional marriage was invented by men to provide protections for their daughters and from having to support them after “given”in marriage. Gay marriage rather that gay unions probably helps weaken traditional marriage protections. A search of what legal questions have resulted in Canada can be found online.

      IMO it is one more move to the far leftist policies of socialist/democrats. All in God’s hands and eventual plan as He moves us about on the face of the World?

    • Lillith70

      I didn’t read all of your motherly concerned rant until after I posted.

      Then I read this! “What about Mormons!? What if they refused to bake a cake for a cultish MORMON wedding? How would you feel then?”

      Ask me rather how it feels to be America’s other, the religious minority group that it is okay to down talk and lie about and promote hate against. Make up something and then hate us for? This link about otherizing the gays whom you can feel for. Your son has the protection of hate crime laws. Mormons do not because the USA considers us mainstreamed. As a fellow American can you say that we do?

      http://www.tommoon.net/articles/why_otherize.html

      They wrote: “But while the capacity for otherizing is deeply ingrained, it’s also true that the more lately evolved structures of the brain can alter the behavior of the more primitive structures. Or, more simply, our unique capacities for self-awareness, self-reflection, and deliberate intention give us a unique capacity for freedom of action.

      One thing we can do to reign in our own otherizing is not to make the common and naïve mistake of “otherizing the otherizers.”

      IOW you too can overcome your Mormon as the dreaded others tendencies!!!

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other

      “The concept that the Self requires the existence of the Other, as the counterpart who defines the Self; the philosophers explain:

      Hegel was among the first to introduce the idea of the other as constituent in self-consciousness. For a direct antecedent, see Fichte.

      Husserl used the idea as a basis for intersubjectivity. Sartre also made use of such a dialectic in Being and Nothingness, when describing how the world is altered at the appearance of another person, how the world now appears to orient itself around this other person. At the level Sartre presented it, however, it was without any life-threatening need for resolution, but as a feeling or phenomenon and not as a radical threat. Beauvoir made use of otherness — in similar fashion to Sartre (though it is likely he took the idea from her[citation needed]) — in The Second Sex. In fact, Beauvoir refers to Hegel’s master-slave dialectic as analogous, in many respects, to the relationship of man and woman.

      One thing we can do to reign in our own otherizing is not to make the common and naïve mistake of “otherizing the otherizers.” “

  6. Tami

    Thank you Pastor Doug! You did nail it, I am a Mormon and appreciated your post very much. Especially your last statement, God is in control and he is NOT suprised. He never said it would be easy, just worth it.

  7. K. Campell

    I think that if religious people worried more about doing good without publicity, if churches that collect billions each year in tithes and other tax exempt donations and yet invest very little to help people in need, started to do more good, help more and judged less, the world would be a much better place!

    • Jim Love

      K. Campell, that has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. Did you really say that religious people should be more worried about doing good without publicity? Unreal, the publicity starts with those without any faith. I have yet to hear of a religious person fighting to have any non-believers rights removed. Yet you here all the time in the media how an Atheist group wants something removed or done away with because it offends them. If someone wants to be Atheist, I am OK with that, to each is own. But I don’t go fighting against their belief system. You really need to do some better evaluation before a comment like that. And to say that the billons in tithes and tax exempt donations come in and very little helps people in need. Again, reevaluate and do some research, you could not be more wrong. You worry about a tax exempt donation yet I am sure you look for every tax loop hole possible for your own needs right.

      • K. Campell

        Most religions spend about 3% to 4% of their income to assist those in need and yet they collect ton of money in tithes and other donations. As to publicity, I meant to say that those who are true believers should do good for the sake of doing good and not to show off.

    • Aj

      There are some who claim to be Christians but are not. It says you will notice them by their fruit. I see what you are saying and these men and women that do these things in the name of selfish gain will be judged. I seen it happen in TX No disrespect by the way.

  8. Jim Love

    Ron Den Boer, I would like to ask what your motive is if I may. I often see many quotes and links to things, however I never really get to hear your own thoughts and or opinions. Thus I am confused by your motive with your post. Would you mind and or care to offer me a response and explanation to my question.

  9. Dwight Reid

    Greg, How can you agree with this man? This essay is phrased very carefully to appear to take the moral high ground. Much
    of it is misleading and in some places it is intentionally dishonest.
    Let’s examine a few of the statements.
    “Our children will never know the world we knew.”

    This is true. It has been true of every generation since the end of the
    dark ages and yet the author uses it to preface what follows as a bad
    thing. The children born into the world after the development of the
    Polio vaccine will never know the misery suffered by previous
    generations. Before the automobile, only the richest people were able to
    see more of the world than a few miles from where they were born. Our
    children will experience a world with less hatred and prejudice than we
    knew. I disagree that this is a bad thing.
    Next the author makes an observation, again with moral implications.
    “Consider
    our society’s changing attitude toward marriage. In 1993 not one nation
    on the planet sanctioned same sex marriage-not one!”
    Let me
    make a similar observation. Before 1700 not a single country on earth
    had laws against slavery. I believe that the lives of many people are
    better because things have changed. The same can be said of the changing
    views about homosexuality. Will the lives of some (those who wish to
    discriminate against LGBTs) be worse? Probably. Were the lives of those
    who relied on slavery to maintain their wealth made worse by its end?
    Does that justify the buying and selling of humans?
    And now the part that is dishonest
    “Religious beliefs are standing in the way of protecting the rights of LGBT people.”
    Is the above statement by Hillary true? Absolutely. Almost all of the objections in this area are religious in nature.
    The author follows that with this statement.

    “What restrictive policy could “President” Hillary Clinton seek to
    enact upon the churches of this nation. What happens if our doctrines
    and convictions are deemed “intolerant” “hateful” “unloving” by a
    society far removed from the Judeo-Christian values that once
    strengthened and nourished our country?”
    Hillary did not say
    that churches were the problem, she said “religious beliefs”. What other
    religious beliefs have we deemed damaging and made illegal? Is there
    anyone who believes that we should return to slavery as it is described
    in the bible? The bible states that slaves must not be taken from your
    own tribe. Beyond that it determines price and how badly one can be
    beaten without punishment. Also included in the bible are death
    penalties for a variety of things including lying about the state of
    your hymen. The bible clearly states that if a rapist pays 50 pcs of
    silver to the father of his victim, he may then marry her and rape her
    whenever he chooses. Some “Judeo-Christian” values are not nourishing
    and should be ignored. Discriminating against homosexuality is one of
    those.

    • Jim Love

      If you want to pick and choose what fits you to support your argument everybody could go on all day long. “Religious beliefs are standing in the way of protecting the rights of the LGBT community.” Really how? Laws were written, but yet we need to change them to enable and or conform to someones way of thinking? This is what you are saying. So since I don’t like McDonalds, they should have to shut it down. I am sure I can find thousands of people who would agree with me that McDonalds is not good. But you will say that is not the same thing. I will even change it for you to make better sense, best way of computer crayon. I will even use one of your lame excuses from above.

      1) I was born blind boy / I was born gay boy
      2) I have been blind since birth, before I even know what blind was or even what choice was / I have been supposedly gay since birth, before I even knew what gay was or even knew what choice was.
      3) I want to see, but I have no choice, I was born this way, and there is no option for surgery or anything / I want to be straight, and thank goodness there are girls so I can be. I am attracted to boys though, but I know that boys are suppose to like girls. What do I do? Oh wait, you make a choice, I can continue my gay choices or I can choose to like girls.

      You either want to be straight or you want to be gay. Thus the choice.

      This is what I am saying, it has been proven by science that it is a choice.
      And if you ultimately choose to be gay. Knock yourself out and be gay, be the best gay person you can be. But just be, quit whining and crying that you need everything to be the same. You made the choice. You don’t go to an Italian restaurant and ask them to make the spaghetti the way you like it just because you like Italian.

      And by the way, England had a law against slavery in the 1500’s

  10. Aj

    I thought this country was founded by Masons who held a Bible but where not the Christians we read about in the Holy Scriptures? I Apologize that I can not apologize for believing that the true Christians did not hate, murder or steal any land.

  11. Milly Moore

    In the past ten years, the Internet has taken away much of the control of information that the LDS church had since the 19th century. Today, any person with access to the Internet can find out facts about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, early church history, and other aspects of Mormonism that the church has concealed from members and potential converts for generations. For example, by going online, people can learn that Smith not only had polygamous wives, but he married women who were already married, and married girls as young as 14 when he was in his 30’s. With a few clicks of a computer mouse and keystrokes, the church’s carefully crafted image of Joseph Smith as a righteous Prophet of God is blown away by non-faith-promoting facts. For the past 150+ years, the LDS church has worked very hard to conceal these facts from members and potential converts in order to bolster their faith in the church and its senior patriarchal leadership, past and present. Thanks to the Internet, each day Latter-Day Saints and non-members who are investigating Mormonism are discovering truths that seriously conflict with what the church wants them to believe.

  12. Molly Miller

    The Present Status of the Lamanites

    “The dark skin was placed upon thee Lamanites so that
    they could be distinguished from the nephites and to keep the two peoples from
    mixing. The dark skin was the sign of the curse….Perhaps there are some
    Lamanites today who are losing the dark pigment. Many of the members of the
    Church among the Catawba Indians of the South could readily pass as of the
    white race; also in other parts of the South.”

    Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 122-123 Joseph
    Fielding Smith

    “The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have
    been growing delightsome… The children in the home placement program in Utah
    are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the
    reservation…There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an
    Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the
    younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young
    members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.”

    – Spencer W. Kimball;
    The Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923

    http://i.imgur.com/4w75X7P.jpg

  13. Molly Miller

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monola…ter-day_Saints

    It is interesting I’ve never heard this until today, when Mormon missionary declared their allegiance to this teaching

    here’s past teachings

    Plurality of Gods
    See ADAM-GOD THEORY, CHRIST, FALSE GODS, FATHER IN HEAVEN, GODHEAD, GODHOOD, HOLY GHOST, POLYTHEISM. Three separate personages — Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods.

    Monotheism
    See ATHEISM, DEISM, GOD, HENOTHEISM, PLURALITY OF GODS, POLYTHEISM THEISM. Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost — each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage — are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists. Professing Christians consider themselves monotheists as distinguished from polytheists, those pagan peoples who believe in a host of gods whose powers are exercised only in their own fields.

    Henotheism
    See ATHEISM, DEISM, GOD, MONOTHEISM, POLYTHEISM, THEISM. Henotheism is the belief in and worship of one God without at the same time denying that others can with equal truth worship different gods. It is falsely taught in the sectarian world that Abraham, for instance, was a henotheist that is, that he worshiped the Almighty, but that at the same time he considered that other nations could worship their own gods with equally beneficial results. This apostate view is erroneously considered to be one step advanced from polytheism and one step behind the final type of monotheism that was in process of evolving.

    Polytheism
    See APOSTASY, ATHEISM, DEISM, FALSE GODS, GOD, HENOTHEISM, MONOTHEISM, PLURALITY OF GODS, THEISM. Primitive and pagan peoples often believe in and worship many supposed gods. They imagine that there are gods of birth, marriage, and death, of war and peace, of the mountains, forests, and plains, and so forth.

    It is falsely supposed by uninspired religious scholars that Yahweh or Jehovah was the tribal God of the Hebrew peoples, that he gradually came to have pre-eminence over the gods of other nations, and that he was finally accepted as the One Supreme Being. The fact is, however, that monotheism did not grow out of polytheism, rather polytheistic concepts are apostate perversions of the original truth about God which was revealed to Adam and the ancient patriarchs.

    It should be remembered that polytheism has reference to pagan deities to whom reverence, devotion, and worship are given. It is not to be confused with the gospel truth that there are “gods many, and lords many, But to us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 8:4-7.) The saints are not polytheists.

    We have no information, at this time, as to the mortal life or ministry of Elias. Apparently he lived in the days of Abraham, but whether he was Abraham, or Melchizedek, or some other prophet, we do not know.

    Link above

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Main articles: God in Mormonism, Plan of salvation (Latter Day Saints) and Exaltation (Mormonism)

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) teaches that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings belonging to one Godhead. “[A]ll three are united in their thoughts, actions, and purpose, with each having a fullness of knowledge, truth, and power.”[21] Latter-day Saints further believe that prayer should be directed at God the Father only, in the name of Jesus Christ.[22]

    Jeffrey R. Holland has stated: “We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance.”

    Latter-day Saints interpret Jesus’ prayer in John 17:11, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are,” to refer to the characteristics, attributes and purpose that the Son shares with the Father, in hopes that people can some day share in those as well. In Mormonism, being one with God means gaining immortality, perfection, eternal life, and reaching the highest level in his kingdom. As D. Todd Christofferson states, “we may become one with God” as Jesus did.

    Joseph Smith taught that humans can become joint-heirs with Christ, and thereby inherit from God all that Christ inherits, if they are proven worthy by following the laws and ordinances of the gospel. This process of exaltation means that humans can literally become gods through the atonement; thus, “god” is a term for an inheritor of the highest kingdom of God. This allows for the existence of many gods in the future, but only one as ruler over life in this universe.

    To the extent that monolatry is considered not-monotheism, the classification of Mormonism as monolatrous is strongly disputed among Latter-day Saints. Bruce R. McConkie stated that “true saints are monotheists.”

    Seems like we have a man made religion very confused on there beliefs

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